caranfindel | Meta: Thoughts on the rest of S9, and maybe some hobbits

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Meta: Thoughts on the rest of S9, and maybe some hobbits

All of a sudden I’ve got a lot of thoughts and theories (and yes, desperate hopes) about the rest of the season.

indiachick started it, by saying Crowley was Dean’s Gollum. And SPN circled it with a giant highlighter in 9.17 when Crowley referred to the Blade as “The Precious.” And now I’m adding this to my wish list for the rest of the season because it’s so. freaking. perfect. Because if Dean is Frodo, and Crowley is Gollum, and the Blade is the Ring, that means Sam is, well, Sam. Sam is the one who recognizes that Crowley is up to no good, though Dean insists they need his guidance. Sam is the one who sticks by Dean even when Crowley turns Dean against him. Sam is the one who carries Dean when he is overcome by the Blade’s power and can’t function on his own. And at the end, when Dean wins his battle and is ready to lie down and die, Sam is the one who drags him away from the battlefield and forces him to live, nicely mirroring what Dean did to Sam, and hopefully letting them understand each other’s actions and feelings about all of that. (Please, please let this happen. Because if it doesn’t, I’ll have to write it myself.)

The other parallel, of course is Sam/Ruby and Dean/Crowley. They’re already halfway there. If/when we discover Crowley deliberately set Dean up to acquire the Mark and pick up the blade, rather than serendipitously running into Cain himself, the alignment will be complete. The question is, how will Sam react? Will (a) he fill Dean’s role, becoming angry and hurt that his brother ignores his warnings and trusts a demon instead? Or will he (b) have sympathy for Dean, since he’s lived through the same thing, and use his own experience to support and eventually rescue Dean? (I’m hoping for B since it fits in with the Crowley as Gollum plot!)

milly_gal has a horribly creepy and awesome theory about what Crowley is doing to Dean. She spoiler tagged it, but I don’t consider it a spoiler since it’s just her theory, so I’m gonna go ahead and put it out here: that Crowley is turning Dean into his own Knight of Hell, and to do this, he’ll have to get Dean to kill Sam. I love this because (a) come on, seriously, you even have to ask? And (b) again, it fits in with Crowley as Gollum. In fact, it makes it better. Gollum doesn’t want to destroy the Ring, he wants to own it and use it. Crowley doesn’t want the Blade and the Mark destroyed. He wants to own them and use them. But what about Crowley’s state of semi-humanity and his apparent attachment to Sam? Will he be willing to let Dean kill him?

spnmonster had some really interesting and insightful thoughts about the state of Dean’s soul; basically, that it’s being destroyed by the Mark and the Blade. And this meshes nicely with my own theory about soulless Dean. We know that soulless Sam became a ruthless hunter who no longer worried about collateral damage – the important thing was killing the monsters, and everything else was secondary. I think soulless Dean would be the opposite. I think the only reason Dean hunts is because of his soul. Remember in “It’s a Terrible Life,” how Sam was the one who discovered the ghost and was eager to hunt it, and Dean had to be talked into it? How Sam was the one who knew he was living the wrong life, and Dean simply assimilated, like he always does? I think Sam is, for whatever reason, a hunter at heart, and his soul is what makes him the kind, empathetic person who cares about civilians and doesn’t want to use them as bait. And whatever Dean is at his core, it isn’t saving people or hunting things or even watching out for Sam – that’s all in his soul, and if it’s being damaged, that’s why he doesn’t seem to care much about any of that right now.

So! All of that leads me to come up with some scenarios for the rest of the season.

The power of the Mark becomes stronger and stronger, and Dean craves the Blade, and starts doing some really, really bad things. Sam is worried but Dean insists it’s all about killing Abaddon, so Sam just watches and tries to help Dean stay human, which isn’t easy because he’s really gone off the rails. (Cas can’t help because he’s tainted by stealing another angel’s grace – it stops working or something, I don’t know. Or he’s too busy with his boring angel war.) Finally Dean is completely under the Mark’s control and he needs the Blade the way you and I need oxygen, and Crowley dangles the Blade in his face and says “Yeah, you can have it, but... only a Knight of Hell can kill another Knight, and the only way you can become a Knight is by killing your brother. So the only way you can have the Blade is if you kill Sam.” So Dean’s choice is to get his fix AND save the world by killing Abaddon, or somehow overcome his addiction and let Abaddon go, but spare Sam. (Also? Maybe Sam decides to take this decision out of Dean’s hands and offers to let Dean kill him to achieve the goal of killing Abaddon, and at the last minute Crowley’s humanity and attachment to Sam make him stop Dean and save his Moose, and okay, this is getting ridiculous, but still. Huh.) And obviously Dean will not choose to kill Sam but he realizes he can’t overcome his addiction and the dark influence of the Mark either so he decides to turn the knife on himself and Sam saves him and Dean’s all, “Hey, being a helpless tool that’s used to hurt others really sucks, sorry about that” and Sam’s all “Hey, watching someone you love try to die because he thinks it’s going to solve everyone else’s problems really sucks, sorry about that” and they skip happily into the sunset.

OR

Same as above, Dean’s going darker and darker under the influence of the Mark, doing bad things, justifying all of it because it’s going to help him kill Abaddon, and Sam’s desperately searching for Abaddon because none of this bad shit Dean’s doing is going to stop until she’s dead, and Crowley convinces Dean that Sam is up to no good and can’t be trusted and wants to keep Dean away from the Blade, but Sam doesn’t let Dean drive him away, he just hangs in there and searches for Abaddon because that’s the only way to end this and he just will not fucking give up on Dean, because he knows, he's been there and done that and he fucking knows, and finally they do find her and Crowley gives Dean the Blade and he kills her (and maybe then he kills Crowley too). And then Dean looks around and he says “I have done some really appalling things, I don’t think I can live with this, I think I’m gonna just stop right here and let it end,” and Sam is all “Nope, it was the Mark that did those things, not you, and I’m saving your ass just like you saved mine,” and then he carries him away from the battleground but things are falling apart and it looks like they’re going to die anyway and Dean says “Thanks for sticking with me, you’re a good brother and I know you love me and I’m glad you’re here with me, here at the end of all things, Sam," AND THEN THE EAGLES SWOOP DOWN ON MOUNT DOOM AND RESCUE THEM AND MAYBE THE EAGLES HAVE BLUE EYES AND WEAR TRENCH COATS, I DON’T EVEN KNOW ANY MORE.

So. Yeah. If either of my scenarios happens, you won’t hear from me again because I will be dead from happiness. But it will be worth it.

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Ha ha ha awesome. I do want Crowley as Gollum rather than Ruby, that would be sooooo much better. And of course, Gollum used to be a lovely laughing Hobbit just like Dean before the ring corrupted him and turned him into a demon, so. And Sam Samwise Winchester carrying Dean down off the burning mountain while the eagles swoop in would be perfect.

And Sam Samwise Winchester carrying Dean down off the burning mountain while the eagles swoop in would be perfect.</>

Wouldn't it? For so many reasons.

Here at the end of all things... Sigh.

You have a lot of great points here.

I kind of think that Millygal's idea re the Mark making Dean into a Knight of Hell was practically explicit in the ep when they met Cain?? Cain was the first Knight, and he led and trained all the other Knights, including Abaddon.... however, she isn't necessarily capable of wielding the blade? Because we don't know if she ever had the Mark, or still has it somehow?

I'm not sure about the Mark/Blade destroying Dean's soul... is he transforming into a demon? is he losing his soul? those are two different things.... The Blade seems to act as a cursed object, compelling the user with the Mark to lash out. Not necessarily because he has no soul, but because he is warped by rage. It's like he becomes a berserker-- a place Dean has been in more than once in his long and storied existence.

I kind of think that Millygal's idea re the Mark making Dean into a Knight of Hell was practically explicit in the ep when they met Cain??

But the part that didn't jump out at me earlier is that Crowley is behind it and has been all along.

As for the souls, I think the Mark might be suppressing his soul. Not turning it.

This....this I like. And makes me want to write. I love re idea of Dean--of the I must be in control--to really lose it w the blade.

Sigh.

And the berserker thing is pretty accurate too. At least to how he's reacted so far.

This....this I like. And makes me want to write. I love re idea of Dean--of the I must be in control--to really lose it w the blade.
Sigh.

Do it!

Until this season, Sam has been Frodo and Dean has been Samwise. It would be *lovely* to see those roles reversed--though I wouldn't object to also seeing Dean's "plain hobbit sense" asserting itself to help him fight off the influence of the ~~Ring~~ Mark/Blade. But yes, however he is saved, Sam will most assuredly have to play a role, because Dean's going down this path because he thinks Sam doesn't love him and Sam's going to have to prove by his actions that that isn't true.
Plus, the whole reason Samwise got to follow Frodo into the West was that he'd been a Ringbearer himself. So maybe this is the trial Dean has to pass through to ensure that wherever he and Sam end up at the end of the series--preferably with "There'll be peace when you are done" fulfilled"--they'll be together.

But yes, however he is saved, Sam will most assuredly have to play a role, because Dean's going down this path because he thinks Sam doesn't love him and Sam's going to have to prove by his actions that that isn't true.

I certainly hope so!

Samwise didn't follow Frodo into the West though, he stayed behind with his normal life and Rosie and his kids. Man THAT would break my heart.

But he eventually does go, or at least we are told he has the option to do so.

After Rosie died, though, he did sail West--it's in the Appendices. (I want to say Celeborn, Elladan, and Elrohir were on that same ship, but that may be fanon... I'm 90% sure it was the last ship, though, because Legolas and Gimli had to build their own after Aragorn died.)

Ah I'd forgotten the Appendices... *bows to your superior powers of remembrance*

LOL! Not really superior memory, just twelve years in the fandom.

Sam as Sam, Crowley as Gollum and blue-eyed, trenchcoated eagles swooping in for the big finale - you really, really have to write that in case the writers *grumbles* ... *grumbles some more* simply won't.

The question is, how will Sam react? Will (a) he fill Dean’s role, becoming angry and hurt that his brother ignores his warnings and trusts a demon instead? Or will he (b) have sympathy for Dean, since he’s lived through the same thing, and use his own experience to support and eventually rescue Dean? (I’m hoping for B since it fits in with the Crowley as Gollum plot!)
I hoping for b, too, but if Sam's behaviour towards Crowley was anything to go by, it looks a lot more like it's going to be a. Yes, it's Crowley and it's sinful to like him as much as I do, but Sam had like ZERO understanding for Crowley's addiction...

I hoping for b, too, but if Sam's behaviour towards Crowley was anything to go by, it looks a lot more like it's going to be a.

But at least if that happens, Dean might be a little more sympathetic about Sam's time as an addict.

Samwise was my favourite character as a kid, and now Sam is my favourite. So if they merged I'd be over the moon.

Faramir has always been my favorite (and he has Samlike qualities) but yes, I love me some Sam Gamgee.

Well I had another favourite - Aragorn. But that wasn't for such childlike reasons :D

Hee!

All of your ideas would make a wonderful way to end the season. If only I wasn't so sure whatever the writers will do will be way lamer. :-\

They could surprise us. Don't give up yet.

You were reading my mind!!! Your first scenario is EXACTLY what I have been advocating since Dean got the Mark and Sam got upset about Gadreel! It HAS to end with an equivalent action of Sam saving Dean!!!

It just has too!!!

And I am so afraid we're not going to get it...

Don't give up hope!

I'm with ya. I'm quite afraid that the writers just won't do that.

I really hope we can get the brothers back by end of season. I love the MOC stuff tho. I'm soooo torn.

Yes. Please, writers, can we have this?

Dean’s all, “Hey, being a helpless tool that’s used to hurt others really sucks, sorry about that” and Sam’s all “Hey, watching someone you love try to die because he thinks it’s going to solve everyone else’s problems really sucks, sorry about that” and they skip happily into the sunset.

OH I WISH.

Keep wishing! :-)

Yes, yes, YES! I've been chewing over LOTR parallels forweeks now and you have nailed it in an even more comprehensive way than I ever quite tied it together. May it be!!!

You need to share these parallels...

There are so many paralells with LoTR in this series it's not even funny. Writing a fic about the Weechesters getting to act out the story was only too easy to write. So hopefully the writers are paying attention and don't let the opportunity for some real good stuff to happen go by.

Ooh, where is this fic?

I have it here (http://archiveofourown.org/works/1049302/chapters/2098833): Wrote it a while ago for the

spn_bigpretzel Summer Challenge and almost got a toothache writing it. ;)

Oh, I'm actually reading that series! Can't read this one out of order!

Well, you have me blushing at 8:23 in the morning. :D

In that case yup, it'll be there when you get there.

Dean is Frodo, and Crowley is Gollum, and the Blade is the Ring, that means Sam is, well, Sam. Sam is the one who recognizes that Crowley is up to no good, though Dean insists they need his guidance. Sam is the one who sticks by Dean even when Crowley turns Dean against him. Sam is the one who carries Dean when he is overcome by the Blade’s power and can’t function on his own. And at the end, when Dean wins his battle and is ready to lie down and die, Sam is the one who drags him away from the battlefield and forces him to live, nicely mirroring what Dean did to Sam, and hopefully letting them understand each other’s actions and feelings about all of that.

I had to stop reading here and catch my breath, because WHOA. This is bloody brilliant, but I almost wish I hadn't read it, for if Show doesn't go there, if this wondrous thing does not happen, I'm going to cry like a baby. (But then, if Show doesn't go there, you'll write this magnum opus, right?)

I'm also loving your Sam/Ruby - Dean/Crowley scenario, as that'd be a near-perfect reversal of S4. To be perfect it would require Castiel to sneak in and release Dean from whatever "panic room" Sam's got him locked up in, and I'm not entirely sure the current crop o'writers would even remember that. ;)

Me, I'm rooting for the Samwise!Sam - Frodo/Dean scenario . . .

Me, I'm rooting for the Samwise!Sam - Frodo/Dean scenario . . .

Me too, if only so I wouldn't feel compelled to write it myself. And because it would make me so ridiculously happy.

I have very little toad except that I really enjoyed reading your thoughts and seriously hope we get something like this.

Thank you!

I like both of these theories quite a lot. :) I'd be happy to see either of them happen. :)

I have a bit of a theory of my own, and we'll see if it plays out or not... or probably parts of it will and parts of it won't, like with ALL of our theories, generally speaking :P hehe

Sam was originally destined to be the king of hell, right? Waaaaay back early on.

Now, Crowley is king of hell (sort of) and Abaddon is wanting to take his throne.

The blade and the mark are increasing Dean's power and his darkness.

In the original story of Cain and Abel (according to SPN) Abel was the one Lucifer chose, and Cain gave himself over to the service of Lucifer, damning his own soul, in order to save Abel from that fate. In the most recent episode, we got a parallel of this sacrifice in Josie and Henry. Josie offered herself up to Abaddon to spare Henry becoming a tool for the cause of evil (which is very much what it looks like is happening to Dean right now).

I've been looking at this like Dean is Cain and Sam is Abel... except the problem with that is that Dean didn't take the Mark for Sam.

So what if the parallel is reversed? What if Abel = Dean, and Cain = SAM?

What if in the end, Sam has to give HIMSELF up to save DEAN from being given over completely to evil? It would be the first time, really, that Sam has sacrificed himself in Dean's place. He almost did last season. It was his love for Dean that made him ABLE to defeat Lucifer in "Swan Song", but that sacrifice wasn't specifically for DEAN, either. It was for the world, to undo the damage Sam had done.

This would be the first time in the history of the show that the roles would be really and truly reversed, and Sam would save Dean in a massive, apocalyptic type way instead of the other way around.

So what if the parallel is reversed? What if Abel = Dean, and Cain = SAM?

Holy crap.

HO

LEE

CRAP

I want this now. I think I want this even more than I want Dean/Frodo.

Well done.

And damn you to hell because I will never get it.

I like the LoTR comparison. There's such a universal story and theme that it would work really well in our (not so) little show.

I find that I can't even speculate about the ending because I am sure I will be disappointed. I mostly know what I don't want to see. I think I will be happy if my "don't wants" done happen. If some of the "do wants" happen then I shall be pleasantly surprised (and probably shocked).

Skipping off into the sunset would be a sight to behold though...;))

I find that I can't even speculate about the ending because I am sure I will be disappointed. I mostly know what I don't want to see. I think I will be happy if my "don't wants" done happen. If some of the "do wants" happen then I shall be pleasantly surprised (and probably shocked).

I'm trying to be optimistic because some of this season has left me pleasantly surprised. (And yes, I've been unpleasantly surprised as well.)

I approve of this theory :)

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Meta: Thoughts on the rest of S9, and maybe some hobbits

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