Thinky thoughts about 9.10 and 9.11

[caranfindel]

On further review, regarding 9.10 and 9.11...

First, I said this in the comments in spn_bunker but I want to put it out here as well.

Dean, you know your little speech in 9.10 about how you're poison, and everyone around you dies? Did you notice who you were giving it to? Sam, who has lost everyone you lost. He doesn't even have memories of your mother. He lost your father twice - when he died, and four years earlier when he told him to not come back. He lost Ellen and Jo, he lost Bobby, he lost Castiel, right along with you. You lost your friend Benny, and Sam lost every friend he's ever had. You lost Lisa and Ben, and Sam lost every woman he's ever loved, or even had feelings for (and aside from Amelia, he doesn't have the comfort of knowing at least they're safe somewhere without him). You both lost Kevin, but Sam gets the unique experience of seeing his body do the deed. He's even lost you more than you've lost him. So yeah, your life sucks. Believe me, I know your life sucks. But you really picked the wrong person to listen to that particular complaint.

Thinking some more about things that bothered me in 9.11...

I’ve seen the concept “yes once means yes forever” when it comes to giving consent to an angel, and I’m pretty sure it’s only appeared in fanfiction and fan speculation, not on the show. But I think it’s been well and fully Kripke’d now, since 9.10 showed Gadreel’s previous vessel saying “yes” again, which strongly indicates he needed to be asked. But this raises the question… that unnamed vessel was available and presumably willing to be Gadreel’s vessel again. So why did Gadreel cling to Sam? He could have left when things started getting uncomfortable, before he hooked up with Metatron. He could have left rather than sit through Crowley’s painful procedure. Why didn’t he? Is there some particular reason he needs/wants Sam as a vessel? Why else would he be willing to go through a torturous procedure rather than leave Sam’s body, even after his cover was blown?

Castiel’s timeline for healing Sam is peculiar. I’ve seen complaints that it makes no sense that Gadreel had to be inside Sam to heal him, and that it took weeks/months, and yet Cas was able to heal him instantaneously with a hand to the forehead. I don’t have a problem with that if we accept what Gadreel said about being injured himself and suffering from reduced powers. If he was telling the truth, there’s no reason Cas couldn’t heal Sam faster and easier. However, that doesn’t address Castiel’s own inconsistency, when he tells Sam he’ll have to heal him in stages, and yet after he undoes almost all of Gadreel’s work, he is able to re-heal him back to that point AND finish healing him instantly.

Why do I say almost? Because Castiel basically admits he didn’t remove all of Gadreel’s grace with the big-ass needle. He said at one time, he would have kept going, would have pushed the needle in further. That means there must have been more grace in Sam after he stopped, right? And it didn’t disappear until Cas healed him totally.

Cas and Sam... I still love these two. And I'm still irritated by Cas saying he didn't know guilt before he was a human. Note to the writers: Season 7. Also, I'm really bothered by "supportive" Cas telling Sam that he's "the only one who messed up more than you." Yes, Sam made a mistake. A very big mistake, that ended up unleashing Lucifer onto the world. But really, has he done anything else to deserve the label of the second biggest mistake-maker ever (and has anyone gone further than Sam to make up for their mistake)? It's interesting that Cas would give him this kind of barb-disguised-as-support, because it seems like a very Dean thing to do, and Dean is Castiel's model for how to treat Sam. So naturally he's going to be all "you're too important to lose even though you're a giant fuck-up." I just wish I knew the writers were doing this intentionally, and not because they really think Sam is a giant fuck-up.

And finally... a couple of wishes I made earlier in the season came true. I'm going to take that as a sign, and make some wishes for the rest of the season:

• Sam is depressed. Clinically depressed. That's why he's acting this way. And by the end of the season he works his way out of it.


• Dean apologizes, not for going to extremes to save Sam, but for lying to him about it. And Sam doesn't immediately let him off the hook, just like Dean never immediately lets Sam off the hook. Not because I dislike Dean, but because that's what people do.


• Cas continues to be this interesting combination of angel and human, but he stops pretending the last 5 seasons didn't happen.

Let's see if the universe hears me!

Comments

[thursdaysisters.livejournal.com]

Though I agree with the clunky delivery of Cas's speech to Sam, I think it fits with the whole "we're all fuck-ups and nothing is truly forgiven, but we're family so we're gonna tough this out"

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Maybe so. I would prefer if he had phrased it that way.

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

"It's interesting that Cas would give him this kind of barb-disguised-as-support, because it seems like a very Dean thing to do, and Dean is Castiel's model for how to treat Sam. So naturally he's going to be all "you're too important to lose even though you're a giant fuck-up." I just wish I knew the writers were doing this intentionally, and not because they really think Sam is a giant fuck-up."

Me too, cos it would stop me being utterly livid if that is why they had that line. If that really is what they think of Sam I reckon I've had it with this show.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

If that really is what they think of Sam I reckon I've had it with this show.

{weeps at the thought}

[agelade.livejournal.com]

Hey, that is a /really/ good point about Dean giving the "poison" speech to maybe the only person in the world who's lost almost everything Dean has and then some. I hadn't thought about that. I have been thinking instead about how that "I'm poison" functions as an excuse for Dean's behavior -- I don't have to apologize, Sam, I'm POISON, I can't help it. Blame it on the poison okay? Not my fault.

As for the "yes means yes" thing -- Yeah I'm guilty of that. I kinda assumed that when planning out my season nine and completely blanked on the whole Jimmy had to say yes again thing. After that episode though, I have to decide whether I'm going to try to explain it away, or just go ahead with my faulty assumption. Bleh.

That's also an excellent question about Gadreel's obsession with staying in Sam when he had a willing vessel waiting. Sam (and Dean) are excellent vessels, to be sure. I'm not sure if his original vessel is his true vessel (tm) or not, but if it isn't, then he'll start to disintegrate pretty soon. Sam and Dean can handle archangels without (apparently) becoming braindead, so I'm sure they can withstand regular angels without falling apart like Nick did. If Gad can't get a True Vessel to consent, maybe Sam is a good second choice?

Another idea I've seen floated around is that Gadreel is playing Metatron and is planning hijinks with Lucifer somehow, and he might once again let Luci into the garden (so to speak). He might have thought he could pull the Dean trick again to get Sam to say yes. (But then, Lucifer could have done that himself...) Maybe there's something in Lucifer's vessel that can get him out of the Cage?

I just don't know. (And I'm really anti-endverse, so I try not to think about it, despite what you might read in Lustra.)

I hope your wishes come true though, man. (Of course, now I've jinxed it...)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

As for the "yes means yes" thing -- Yeah I'm guilty of that. I kinda assumed that when planning out my season nine and completely blanked on the whole Jimmy had to say yes again thing. After that episode though, I have to decide whether I'm going to try to explain it away, or just go ahead with my faulty assumption. Bleh.

I'd stick with your plan. It's an AU so you can make up your own rules, and I doubt the fact that you have to get consent every time is going to be a major plot point in the show.

Another idea I've seen floated around is that Gadreel is playing Metatron and is planning hijinks with Lucifer somehow, and he might once again let Luci into the garden (so to speak). He might have thought he could pull the Dean trick again to get Sam to say yes. (But then, Lucifer could have done that himself...) Maybe there's something in Lucifer's vessel that can get him out of the Cage?

I'd really like it if Gadreel had some Lucifer-related reason for hanging onto Sam. Adding that to my wish list. And I don't think you jinxed it, because others agreed that we wanted those things to happen that I wished for earlier, so you're actually helping! :-)

Dean at end of 9.10

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

Dean's speech annoyed me too, but I was still trying to be Zen about the show at that point.

It was like Dean was 'I know I've violated your trust in the most spectacular way EVER and Kevin is dead cos of it. But it's still all about ME!'

Dean can be such as awesome character when the writers give him a chance.

Re: Dean at end of 9.10

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

My review of 9.10 http://cuddyclothes.livejournal.com/294884.html addressed those issues at length. Dean is so self-centered and controlling, and it was great to see Sam making Dean leave, rather than caving. The minefield I stepped into was SOMETHING.

Re: Dean at end of 9.10

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

OK, commented and backed you up. With a massive disclaimer. It probably won't do anything to protect me from the wrath of anonymous, but hey :D

Re: Dean at end of 9.10

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Wow. I read your review before the shit hit the fan, I guess, or else i didnt expand all the comments, because i missed all of that. I don't even understand how some of those people are watching the same show I'm watching.

[justayooper.livejournal.com]

Yes, totally agree with you on everything! Here is Sam, fresh from being possessed by two different entities and he has to listen to Dean's "woe is me" speech instead of being able to express how he feels. No wonder the poor boy feels so defeated. With the way this fandom works, the longer the separation lasts, the more hate Sam is going to get I'm afraid, because we still won't get his point of view and so many feel he should grateful instead of angry.