caranfindel

I feel like there's a personal element to Toni - she's far too intense about what she did to Sam for it to just be a job. It wasn't detached.

I like having Lucifer back, but I think it really does undo Sam's sacrificed, and I'm kind of pissed that nobody is pissed at Cas, although I get that it kind of had to be done.

Also, why is everyone trying to shove Lucifer back into the Cage? You have angel blades, he's an angel, why not just kill him?

I'm sure Lucifer is out there, waiting for Sam. And watching him with those eyes….

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Uh, by 'spoilers' you meant for beyond 12x02, right? Or I can put everything under a spoiler cut...

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Right: spoilers = unaired episodes.

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Phew!

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I think only an archangel blade can kill an archangel?

And watching him with those eyes….

{GIVES YOU THE HIGHEST OF HIGH FIVES}

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Are there archangel blades? Are they different? Could they find one?

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fanspired

I rather got the impression in s5 that none of that shit worked on Lucifer. It was just kind of a given that he was a special case and somehow indestructible. *shrugs*

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I thought we knew archangel blades were different. But according to the supernatural wiki, it's only a possibility.
http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Archangel_blade

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I would like there to be a personal element to Toni's Winchester antipathy - it would fix some of the BMoL's incompetence problem, but alas, I feel like we would have seen some heavy hinting if there was.

I assume that if the Colt couldn't kill Lucifer an angel blade wouldn't?

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I assume that if the Colt couldn't kill Lucifer an angel blade wouldn't?

I don't know. I mean, the blade works on archangels, and Gabriel faced Lucifer with an angel blade. Is there something about him that makes him different? Or some reason to leave him alive?

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I'd like that a lot, even though it would basically be a retelling of the Angry Little Cole story.

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True - but there are plenty of reasons to be personally angry about how the Winchesters have been running this show to go around.

One thing that occurred to me was that it would make a hell of a lot more sense for Toni to bring up that time Dean voluntarily adopted an ancient murder-crazy curse then descended into demonhood and went bar-hopping with the king of hell (who is still his work frenemy so you'd think Toni might be interested in getting Crowley's number - ). I think that'd be a little more worthy of comment than Dean's summer bromance with a vampire. Or for that matter - question Sam about his recent and repeated partnering with a witch who's eluded the Men of Letters for centuries and is still at large over that bad girlfriend he helped murder years ago. Or ask them both about that thick and sloppy trail of human corpses they've left behind because they can so seldom be bothered to exorcise a demon.

The Brit MoL are Monday morning quarterbacks who aren't even good at the Monday morning quarterbacking is what's so annoying.

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percysowner.livejournal.com

Not that anyone on staff remembers this canon, but Archangels couldn't be killed with a regular angel blade. Originally it was supposed to be THEIR own blade, but I'm not sure that continued to be true. I can't remember how Raphael died. In any case, there is a chance someone remembers that any old angel blade won't work, it has to be a special blade that kills Archangels.

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ferlonda.livejournal.com

Thanks for this- it helped me figure some stuff out about that episode.

I basically like a lot of the ideas but the execution was.. dull and story was way overwhelming the actual characters who should have been the center of the episode. I'd rather they had actually left out a bunch of the Lucifer/Rowena/Crowley stuff and left it for another episode and allowed the main characters to have that time to actually feel and express their emotions.

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Yes, this.

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What kind of deep dark secret could Mary have? Another deal? Something she did in whatever her afterlife was?

I don't dislike this Lucifer's portrayal but I'm wondering what the hell the point of him hanging around could be. Just so he can be the antagonist for more Crowley/Rowena/Castiel side-plots? Are they laying the groundwork for a Lucifer redemption arc? If so is Sam going to have to forgive him? Oh Christ, Sam is going to have to forgive him, isn't he.

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You shut your dirty mouth!

But yeah, probably. :(

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fanspired

Mind you, we all know how unconditionally forgiving Sam can be, and if he actually did manage to forgive Lucifer: Christ.

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Archetypal-Christ, you mean? Yes. I think the air of sanctification - forgiving your abuser is what makes you holy - is a big part of what I'd hate about any Sam putting the seal on Lucifer's redemption narrative.

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fanspired

> Archetypal-Christ, you mean?

Yes, I think they've always cast Sam in that role: unconditionally loving, forgiving and - ultimately - self-sacrificing. I share your reservations with that narrative and I think, in the early seasons of the show, there was always a subtext that sought to subvert and question the traditional hero narrative. Not so sure about now, though.

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paddywank.livejournal.com

Just kinda butting in because this is one of the few discussion threads I've found. Some interesting comments, but I'm fixated on a few basic items. Like why were Dean and Cas so Damn impotent AND incompetent? Did I miss a part? Is Cas human again? Did they leave out a part where Cas looked for Sam's soul? They had to look for rentals? Even if the hidey hole was warded enough he couldn't find him, didn't a sudden patch of heavy warding raise a concern? And, wasn't there a prior episode where a place was warded against angels and something was done to allow the guys to see and break some of the sigils so Cas could do more than stand there? I feel like it's been interesting ideas, but lacking in execution.

On the other hand, even if they keep insisting on overplucking Sam's eyebrows he was at least, allowed to be a serious tough guy. About time.

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I figured that because the BMoL seem to know a lot about warding - the knuckle-dusters last week for example - that both Sam and his location had been warded. And once there, they couldn't break the warding because it was cloaked. However, I was disappointed that Dean was captured so easily, damn angry spice and her tricks!

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paddywank.livejournal.com

LOL. I guess they needed to hurry the night along.

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casey679.livejournal.com

I'm giving Dean a pass on his behavior this episode because his mom is back. That's gotta throw him off his game. But goddamnit, I want that bro-hug. We earned it.

I'm hoping Posh Spice's Winchester-hate (and her stalker board) stems from the death of her husband or ANYTHING logical that would explain her behavior. Ugh.

There's an awesome picture comparison on Tumblr which is eluding me which compares Sam's hallucination of Mary while detoxing (hug, fan rotating in ceiling, Sam looking up pensively) with Sam meeting Mary in 12x02 (hug, fan rotating on ceiling, Sam looking up pensively). I'm not convinced he thinks it's all real yet. I'm reserving my ultimate reaction until I see his interactions at the beginning of the next episode.

For once, I found myself wanting MORE Cas in this episode - him not being there for the final scene just seemed wrong. If he's willing to steal a car and headbutt someone on Sam's behalf, he should be able to stick around and eat chicken afterwards.

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gidgetgal9.livejournal.com

Your comment comparing the Detoxing scene with Mary and this weeks episode reminded me of something that has been in my head. Sam fantasized about Bela after she shot him. There was the whole Dean saying in Bad Day at Black Rock, you won't shoot him and she did. Then the had that dream where they were having sex. Flash forward to - Sam says you won't shoot me and British chick does and he has sex with her in the hallucination. Just found it all weird. Why would writers have Sam in sex scenes with British women who have shot him- just a weird choice.

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Maybe someone on staff has a type...

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I'm hoping Posh Spice's Winchester-hate (and her stalker board) stems from the death of her husband or ANYTHING logical that would explain her behavior. Ugh.

Yes, I so agree that it does seem that she has a huge personal grudge against the Winchesters, I hope there is some explanation but nothing would make her behavior acceptable. The things she did to Sam were unforgivable, and she was about to stab the inside of Dean's eye for goodness sake!

Good point about Cas at the end, too, he should've been there.

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fanspired

> Sam's sweet, awkward conversation with his mom

Can I tick this twice. Or more. Many more.

I'm wondering if we didn't get a brother hug because it's foreshadowing that Mary's presence is going to fuck with their relationship.

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Oh, no. That would suck so hard.

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fanspired

Well, I fear you'd better start sucking, sister, cos I think I already see signs that's where they're going with this.

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anactoria.livejournal.com

While a hug would have been nice, I also quite liked the melancholic note of the ending, and the fact that they were all in separate rooms. It makes sense to me that bringing the family back together won't necessarily... bring the family together.

Wasn't too keen on the rest of it, though, and the scene at the start really creeped me out. 'Character gets brainwashed into thinking they're in love with their worst enemy' is actually a trope I really like in fic, but at least fic generally acknowledges that it's super fucked up instead of just brushing it off. Yeah, Show, you don't think consent issues matter if the victim is a dude, we get it. :-/

I found new!Lucifer pretty dull, but I guess that's an improvement on my wanting to throw shoes at the screen every time he appears. ;)

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I'm confused about Dean's lack of urgency regarding his kidnapped brother as I didn't notice that at all. Perhaps I watch through Dean-coloured glasses, but I thought he was as angry, frustrated and eager to save Sam as he's ever been in the same circumstances.

But I love this poll, and the great use of the lyrics!

Edited Date: 2016-10-25 09:51 am (UTC)

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Basically, Dean went back to Kansas and left Cas (not a strong hunter, compared to Dean) in Missouri looking for Sam. And when the call came that Sam was possibly located, Dean didn't seem in any big hurry to get there. I went into more detail in my recap.

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Ah, yes, I rewatched both episodes last night and I can see what you mean now, I'll read your recap later.

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ladyjane

I absolutely detest Springfield as Lucifer. He acts more like Samuel Campbell than Pellegrino's Lucifer, which was brilliant. As far as I'm concerned, they should never have brought Lucifer back from wherever Amara sent him. I thought he was thrown into the Darkness or the Empty.

I don't care whether Mary has any dealings with Crowley, but I would adore seeing her reaction to Rowena. (And Charlie, we really need another Charlie episode.)

About Rowena, Crowley, and Mr. Moneybags:
- I think Rowena's desire to give up magic and live a normal life is her version of PTSD. After all, she was killed by both Lucifer and Amara in the span of a few months (weeks?). I think she just wants a break from it all.
- I think Crowley is spiteful and despicable enough to use his powers on Rowena's date. After he flays and partially repairs the poor guy, he'll believe whatever Crowley tells him.

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Good points about Rowena and Crowley.

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madebyme-x.livejournal.com

I kinda liked the new Lucifer. Personally I find him much more menacing than Casifer, and that's the way I like my Lucifer. And if I can't have Mark P, then this seems like a good solution (although I still don't know why we can't. I mean he healed his face, why can't he just make a shimmer mirage or something...)

I'm liking how so far we've seen the show back to basics; a human threat, but still all about family. Mary's presence has the potential to let us know a lot more about the boys and their family and I find that refreshing and exciting, especially after 12 seasons of not knowing too much. I'd like her to have a secret, but I'm loving all these little revelations too like she can't cook.

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xparrot.livejournal.com

(ehhh, hi? just popped over from the bunker, hope the excessive commenting is okay!)

I loved last season; s11 is one of my favorites of the whole show, possibly my very favorite. And I loved the finale, and I loved the premiere.

But I just rewatched 12x01 and 12x02, and it raised a whole host of questions, mostly related to, did the writers actually talk to each other? At all? Because it really feels like they didn't.

I liked some of the scenes of 12x02, and the ep was paced pretty well; it moved along. But oh man on the rewatch it has so many plotholes.

Maybe the biggest is with Mary. In 12x01, Mary is with Dean and Cas for the entire episode. She helps interrogate people. She saves their lives. There is no question for any of it whether she should come along or not. Dean doesn't leave her back at the bunker, nor does he ever suggest she should go back.

So why is Dean suddenly reluctant to bring her along? And why is Cas at all surprised to see her? I can imagine reasons (Dean's worried for her safety, Dean is so ashamed of what she thinks of him as a hunter that he feels like he won't be on his game) but there's no mention of them. Dean has a total 180 on how he's treating her with zero explanation. (ETA: Okay, limited explanation - he says, "I can't do my job if I'm worried about you." But why wasn't that a concern for him before, when he gave her a gun without question and brought her on every step of the way, before she'd even proved herself against Ms. Watt. Also, why is he saying 'my job' when this isn't a normal hunt; it's a rescue mission?)

Speaking of which, what happens to Cas? At the end, where does he go? Why isn't he back at the bunker with them? And why isn't there a single line about his healing (if there were any new viewers, I imagine they'd be pretty confused why the characters go from beaten bloody to just fine.)

But I admit my biggest problem with the ep is the ending. I don't get why the Winchesters are angsting. I wanted a brother hug, but even more than that, I wanted them to be together at the end, no longer alone. What was the point of that final angst? If it was about Sam's pain and trauma, that would make sense, would respect the character...but there was no hint of that.There will be plenty of time for angst later; right now, Dean is alive, Mary is alive, Sam is rescued. Why couldn't we see them being happy for five minutes before everything goes to hell again?

Edited Date: 2016-10-25 11:55 am (UTC)

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Well, I can't speak to Dean's turnaround about Mary - it makes perfect sense for him to freak out about her being in a situation he can't control and want to protect her even if it isn't appropriate - but the execution felt rather obligatory. And of course once he doubted her abilities he had to let himself get captured in the most convenient way possible - strolling up to the front door of the enemies lair - so that Mary could bust in and prove her competency. Again. I would actually like it better if this doesn't resolve his issues with letting her go into danger because his fears aren't rational, they're deep-seeded child-hood trauma, but we'll see. I've been pleasantly surprised by how they've handled the other Mary material so far.

I assume Cas was back at the bunker and just omitted from the Sam-Mary-Dean dynamic.

Why couldn't we see them being happy for five minutes before everything goes to hell again? - Well, they were happy together for about thirty seconds with the pie. As Winchesters go, that's something. As for the solitary angst - this might just be a matter of taste but it worked for me. Despite that lovely Sam & Mary scene they haven't really hugged out their issues and moved on. Issues like Dean's shamefully mixed feelings about Mary's return - he'd rather be wallowing in nostalgia about his dead mom than confront his weird new feelings towards his live one. Or the many many morally-compromised things Sam and Dean have done that I'm sure they never want Mary to know about. Or the full picture on what their relationship was with John which the writers seem to be making a point of them holding back. And Mary has yet to confess to Sam about the deal she made with Yellow Eyes. I don't expect that they'll ever talk most of this out and that this is just the start of things festering until somebody makes a bad decision and Mary can't stay with her boys anymore.

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xparrot.livejournal.com

I think Dean threw me off because in the premiere, he didn't seem to doubt Mary's abilities at all -- in the bunker he hands her the gun and leaves her alone, then he takes her on all the interrogations, then she gets hurt but is healed and immediately saves his and Cas's life. And then, that's when he's suddenly not wanting her along? It was an odd turnaround; it's not that I can't believe it, but there was no setup for it. And it was even odder that Cas seemed surprised that Dean brought Mary, when she had been along before.

Dean's capture was a bit ridiculous. I mean, at least he wasn't bonked on the head by a slight young woman...but for him to just waltz in without even asking Cas where the invisible wards were, yeah, not the greatest move! Also, as far as I could tell, the ward that caught him was in plain view of Mary and Cas...so they just stood by and watched, as Toni came out and cuffed Dean and dragged him inside? And then Mary managed to get inside without tripping any traps herself? And then Cas just stood out there until the MoL dude turned up, and when said dude dropped the wards, Cas didn't immediately grab him? (And no, this isn't the most logistically ridiculous confrontation in SPN I don't think, but it's up there...!)

The ending angst - I wasn't really meaning all three of them together, but Dean and Sam. I would have been better with it if there had been any real moment between the brothers otherwise, or if there had been any hint of what Sam was actually thinking about when he looked at the fan, rather than leaving it completely open to interpretation. The brothers together is the standard ending for SPN, and the few eps that they're not together there is usually a reason. In this case, Sam spent days thinking Dean was dead, and Dean spent days looking for Sam; yet they don't even clink bottles of beer. Dean doesn't even say Sam's name once, from the moment he sees him! But it doesn't seem like this is because of any particular rift between them, or that it means anything that they're apart. While as I found the end of 12x01 to be really effective, the last we see of the Winchesters in 12x02 feels to me like the angsty imagery was more in service to the song than to character development.

I may like the ep and the ending more in the context of later episodes. Right now it feels like the Mary storyline has subsumed the Sam & Dean story, and while I'm genuinely interested in Mary, both as a character on her own and as part of the Winchester family dynamic/disaster, Sam & Dean have always been why I watch this show. And I was looking forward to more of a reunion between them than we got, so that disappointment is definitely coloring my view. I confess, I'd be way more willing to overlook the plotholes if there had just been a brotherly hug!

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No such thing as excessive commenting!

I agree with much of what you've said, but I didn't have a problem with everyone returning to their separate corners. I think they all needed a little alone time to reflect. But there should have been a brother hug before that!!!

Edited Date: 2016-10-25 05:34 pm (UTC)

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xparrot.livejournal.com

Yeah, I wouldn't have had a problem with it if it felt to me like they were returning to their separate corners - but without a hug, or at least some moment of caring between Sam and Dean, it felt more like they weren't returning but were still trapped there in loneliness? The bit at dinner was cute, but it was such a shallow interaction after all the pain that came before it...

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Agreed that the ep skimped on the catharsis where Sam and Dean's separation was concerned.

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ladyjane

After reading all of the comments, especially the ones concerning the Detox scene and Sam's visions of Bella, I'm wondering if your coda is close to the truth. What if Sam thinks everything that happened in the cellar is some form of hallucination and he's just going along with the scenario until he finds a way to break free of the spell/drug? I mean, after what Lucifer put him through, he could even believe that the scene when Tony explains the drug/potion/spell combo is all a part of the hallucination. As far as I remember, they don't know Dean is supposed to be dead, so it would be logical for them to have Dean come to his rescue.

Mary is the LAST person he would expect to show up, but she did appear during Detox. He could also think she's a projection by the MOL, in the mistaken belief that Sam yearns for her as much as Dean does. The touchy-feely talk with Mary and hugging her could be for his captor's benefit. It would also explain no bro hug -- he couldn't bring himself to touch Dean because his death is too raw.

Then again, I could be giving show and writers too much credit. OR We could find out next week, "It was all a dream," and he's right back in Toni's clutches -- with Dean and Mary tied up beside him.

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Then again, I could be giving show and writers too much credit.

{puts her hands in her pockets and starts whistling}

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flawedteacup.livejournal.com

I am sure there will be either a jesse's girl or a general hospital reference within Rick Springfield's next three episodes. I mean, how could you not?

Also, OMG he's so OLD. I am so OLD. I hate feeling OLD.

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