Episode poll 11.17: "Red Meat"

[caranfindel]

Before we start, let me quickly say thank you. The comments on last week's poll were full of interesting conversation and astute observations and you guys just add so much to my ridiculous little polls and I love you all. Regulars, visitors, lurkers, people who always comment, people who vote but never comment... thank you all for being here. {smooches}

(Sloppy declarations of love? I might be a teeny bit intoxicated from 11.17!)

Now, on to the poll!


[Poll #2041182]

No spoilers in the comments, please!

Comments

[celtic-forest.livejournal.com]

So much love!!! For Show! For fandom! For deliciously crafted polls! *twirls everyone*

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

\o/

[jennygeee.livejournal.com]

I love Dean's red shirt!!!! Sorry I just had to say that :)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

The Red Shirt of Bad Decisions! Gotta love it.

[casey679.livejournal.com]

I think that much like Cas got the "you're useless" message shoved down his throat and made a terrible decision, that Dean is getting a similar "you're a puppet/have to be on the sidelines/can't help" message shoved down his, only with better writing and spread out over the season instead of one episode. And I think that means he's ripe for making terrible life choices, and when one comes up he'll jump at the chance. I'll be waiting for that red shirt in the final episode!

Also, I really think the wife's acting was excellent. Too bad she didn't have better choice in husbands. Although, bonus, now she gets a do-over.

[casey679.livejournal.com]

Also, I can't believe it, but I kind of miss Rowena. She was terrible and I loathed the episodes when she and Crowley were ostensibly on the same side, but I would have liked her loose out there in the world as a villain. Although demon witch Rowena would be interesting, too.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I liked Rowena and the Winchesters together. (Also? My phone doesn't recognize Rowena and tries to autocorrect it to Rowenifer. A sign???)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

It may as well be a Star Trek red shirt. ;-)

[ladyjane]

ROFLMAO

[fufaraw]

I didn't have an opinion in the "final battle" category, but I would pay real money to see Billie take Amara down. Boom!

[kattrip033.livejournal.com]

I seriously have to second this.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I would pay good money to see Billie bitchslap anybody. Maybe even Sam. (Maybe especially Sam.)

...

When is the next spn_masquerade anyway? Asking for a friend.

[fufaraw]

Umm, dunno. Hang on. Umm, comm info says semi-annual, and it just closed a few days/week ago. You your friend has six months to write the Billie wins everything fic!

[z-publicizes.livejournal.com]

I think whatever shit's gonna go down this May could probably be avoided if Dean would just burn that red shirt.

What about an Amara vs God confrontation? Surely whatever way Amara is 'neutralized' God has to be involved somehow.

Re: people think it was Cas-- the fuck? And not the man he swallowed a bottle of pills over, like, a few hours prior?

I rated it a Dean-centric ep because we went more in-depth on his psyche, imo, while we got some great Sam stuff but at more of a remove. I'd be interested to know what criteria others use to determine the tilt of an episode.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I think whatever shit's gonna go down this May could probably be avoided if Dean would just burn that red shirt.

Quite possibly. But I love it so I'm prepared to let the world end over it.

What about an Amara vs God confrontation? Surely whatever way Amara is 'neutralized' God has to be involved somehow.

:-/ I'm going to be disappointed if we have a literal deus ex machina ending, I really am.

Re: people think it was Cas-- the fuck? And not the man he swallowed a bottle of pills over, like, a few hours prior?

I know, right? To be fair, I have not seen these actual posts, but I have seen posts from people saying they've seen them.

I rated it a Dean-centric ep because we went more in-depth on his psyche, imo, while we got some great Sam stuff but at more of a remove. I'd be interested to know what criteria others use to determine the tilt of an episode.

Oddly enough, I thought it was a very Sam ep until I saw posts saying it was a great Dean ep, and then I realized I was wrong. I think Sam fans are so used to him being marginalized and unappreciated that when he does shine, it's all we can see. :D

[bratfarrar]

I HAVE SEEN THOSE POSTS. It's very weird--like they saw an entirely different episode (well, season/show since at least season 9) than I did. Lots of twisty meta, too: they have those shipper goggles locked on tight.

[z-publicizes.livejournal.com]

It could be considered bi-bro if you're discerning by actions/who's driving the plot. It was certainly a great showing for Sam in any case.

I went looking for those destiel posts and found a person arguing that "the man I love" couldn't have Dean thinking about Sam because it was too romantic a phrase to relate to a brother. And that the entire Corbin/Michelle subplot was a Dean/Cas mirror. And that the entire episode was framed around Dean's fear of losing Cas, starting with the obligatory "this is why not pursuing the mytharc this week doesn't mean we're callous assholes about our friend's situation" convo between Sam and Dean. So, yeah. Shipping goggles are amazing. But I don't get why they're necessary--Dean caring about Cas and fearing that they might lose him for good has been there in the text, there's no need to read stuff in where it doesn't belong.

I've also seen people saying Billie was wrong and Dean really did want to save Sam out of a sense of general altruism/to defeat Amara. Which, I was touched when Dean said that/had faith in Sam's abilities even though I very much doubt Dean was doing long term strategic calculations in that hospital bed, and clearly Billie was intended to be the cold clarifying eye about his motivations this season.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I've also seen people saying Billie was wrong and Dean really did want to save Sam out of a sense of general altruism/to defeat Amara.

Yeah, it was so obvious to me that this was just his way of selling it to Billie.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I voted Dean-centric for the same reasons. I consider exploring the mental state of a character what makes it a Dean-centric or Sam-centric episode.

I too was floored by the people who thought it was Cas that was being referred to in "the man that you love" mostly because I can't remember the last time Dean saw him die, but mostly because, yeah, Dean just tried to kill himself to save Sam and the times he's seen Cas die he's never been "let the world burn" about it.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Looking at the poll resutls - everyone pretty much loved everything. I wish there was some way to show these results to Carver!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

No kidding. "More of this, please!"

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

Telling Carver may not be necessary. He's working on a pilot for a new show and he's put running the writers room in Andrew Dabb's hands. If his pilot is picked up, we might be getting another change in show runners, or he may just be burnt out enough that he'll leave the writers room in Dabb's hands. Considering how much better this season has been, IMHO, things may shake themselves out naturally.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

That would be fantastic.

[anactoria.livejournal.com]

I had to pick both thrilled and disappointed, because I hate hate hate the Casifer storyline, but there have been so many brilliant standalone episodes this season I still love most of them.

And the whump has been a wonderful thing to witness.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I'm handwaving the whole Casifer thing... The rest of S11 has made up for it!

[anactoria.livejournal.com]

Yes... this and Rufus & Bobby and "Baby" would be enough to make it worth watching even if everything else was rubbish. ♥

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Absolutely! Those three episodes. And Sully. And Eileen. SO MUCH GOOD.

[gidgetgal9.livejournal.com]

I am a Hurt Sam junkie and when I have written H/C stories- I tend to write it from Dean's pov. In that way, it tends to be a Dean-centric story with the subject matter being Sam and I think that is what we got this week and of course I loved it.

I have a feeling that in saving Cas from Lucifer, Dean will have to take a bit of the lead in that Sam has been so scarred by Lucifer and it would be hard for him to face Lucy. In a turn about, I think Sam is the one that needs to take on Amara with Dean as back up.

No matter what I'm excited and nervous to see how it all comes to a head!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I am a Hurt Sam junkie and when I have written H/C stories- I tend to write it from Dean's pov. In that way, it tends to be a Dean-centric story with the subject matter being Sam

That happens to me a lot - I try to write a Sam story but it ends up coming from Dean's POV.

[fanspired]

> Billie calling Dean on his shit

Ah, but Dean offered his life to save Sam, straight swap, proving that Billie's (and many others' over the years) thesis that Dean only wants to save Sam because he can't lose him is, at least, simplistic.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Yes, Dean would rather be dead himself than survive Sam's death. Simplistic but still accurate, I think. Did I miss what you meant?

[fanspired]

Whether Dean lives without Sam or dies without him, he's still going to lose him, so Billie's implication that Dean's desire to save Sam is simply motivated by the selfish need to keep him around is, at the very least, not the whole story. I just don't think we should accept everything that's said on the show at face value. There are a lot of commonly repeated myths, that are even accepted as facts by the characters themselves, that are actually contradicted or at least called into question by the action we've actually witnessed if we're paying attention.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

The way I see it, Dean has two goals when it comes to Sam, and neither conflicts with what Billie said. His primary goal is to keep Sam alive. This is more important than saving people and hunting things, as evidenced by his asking Sam not to complete the last trial.

But if he fails at that, his secondary goal is to not survive Sam's death. And again, this is more important than saving people. When he thought Sam was dead, he was ready to die fighting the other werewolves. He only changed his course when Corbin begged him to save him and Michelle. (And if you don't agree he was going kamikaze at that point, keep in mind that he could have said "you'll be fine; hide in the basement while I kill these guys." But he didn't, because that wasn't his intention. He had to change his entire plan in order to survive so he could save them.)

So, his offer to Billie was to save Sam outright (ostensibly to save the world), or take him in trade for Sam. Either option would meet one of those goals. Having Sam around to fight Amara was just a bonus as far as he was concerned.

(ETA... Hope I don't sound argumentative. I'm having a grand time discussing this.)

[fanspired]

I don't disagree about Dean's goals. It's more a question of his motivation. I think it's important that, although his first instinct on thinking Sam was dead was to go kamikaze, he nevertheless was persuaded from it by the need to save people. I do think he genuinely believes that, if anyone can save the world, it's Sam. I also think that we're seeing a return to his season 2 mentality where he believed that Sam deserved to live, and he didn't.

I actually have a lot more I want to say. This is a subject I could (and would love to) discuss at length! :) Gonna have to get back to you on it, though, as I have deadlines to meet at the moment (grrr boo hiss)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Stupid real life! {shakes angry fist}

[ladyjane]

After everything we survived together, I watched the man I love die. There's no normal after that.
Which means neither Sam nor Dean has been "normal" since All Hell Breaks Loose and Mystery Spot, respectively.


I believe Billie may have been taking a page from her master, Death. He built the "Great Wall of Sam" even after Dean failed his test because he wanted the boys to "keep digging." Billie called Dean on his BS that only Sam can save the world. Maybe she wouldn't have swapped brothers, even if Sam knew how to stop the Darkness. But, Billie knew he wasn't, and she told Dean. IMO, she also knew that as long as Sam was alive, Dean would fight to live; and they would keep digging.


For me, it was a bi-bro show because it showed how far each of the brothers were willing to go to save the other.
While Dean had more character development; Sam demonstrated (once again) that he was determined not to die as long as Dean needed him. Sam could tell from the state of the cabin there hadn't been a fight, and that Dean left of his own free will. If Corbin hadn't been bitten, I think Sam would have simply patched himself up as best he could and waited for Dean to come back. It was the threat Corbin posed to Dean that got him out of the cabin and to the hospital. As you noted, he collapsed as soon as Dean said he was okay.


*leaves critic mode & enters fangirl mode*

O. M. G. SHOW! I haz ALLLLLLL the feelz! And the pretty! Hurt Pretty, Despair Pretty. ALLLLL the pretties. *iz ded*

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

LOL! I love both Critic You and Fangirl You.

[fanspired]

This! All of the above. (Mind you, I still haven't ruled out the possibility that Billie might actually be Death with a Billie glamour on).

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

OH YES PLEASE.

[flatlanderjr.livejournal.com]

One thing you forgot to ask about was what people thought about the sheriff (or was he a park ranger?). He was a little too quick to 1) use a taser on someone who was obviously injured and wasn't even breaking the law at the time (addendum: sorry, I forgot he punched the sheriff; that's breaking the law right there) and 2) sedate a guy who just broke the law but, again, wasn't at his 100% best and could easily suffer ill-effects from the addition of more drugs.

The guy seemed a little too obsessed with control. His first instinct to gain control seemed to be to use something that would not only knock the other person unconscious but also cause them injury. I thought that he and Corbin were the most disturbing characters in the whole episode.

Since his partner (employee?) was missing and not answering his radio, and since 5 people had disappeared, maybe the sheriff was on edge and didn't want his only possible suspect, Dean, to leave by any means necessary. Maybe he wouldn't normally act so rash, but his behavior was still extreme.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

You've got some good points there. I just thought the guy was a jerk.

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

I have a sneaking suspicion that parts of this story line will carry on into next season (like maybe they'll save Cas, but Amara will still be around, or vice-versa. Surely it's too much to resolve in one finale?! Plus this is God's sister, how can you kill/stop that in the few eps we have left?!)

And I adore Billie, and I want to know more about her! Has she taken over Death's role? We really haven't heard anything about how it works with reapers now that Death is dead (unless he's actually not dead?!) And I can see Billie teaming up with the Winchester's over the darkness, but I think she's serious about the whole reaping and Empty thing (although she has helped them out twice now...I have no idea if it was unintentional or not?)

Wonderful poll as always!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

You know, I'd be perfectly okay with this storyline lasting another season (as long as they finally make Amara feel like an actual baddie). It's better than having to come up with a new Big Bad every year.