11.23 Episode poll: "Alpha and Omega"

[caranfindel]

[Poll #2046231]

Speculation about S12 is welcome. Actual knowledge (or things that you don't know for sure if they're real, such as things said at cons) of plots, guest stars, episode titles, etc., is spoilery, so please don't post it here. Thanks!!!

Comments

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

What is it with this show and British chicks who shoot Sam?

[jennytork.livejournal.com]

Now you see why I nicknamed her Bela Jr....

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

TO HELL WITH THEM.

[flatlanderjr.livejournal.com]

What is it with this show and making every single British character an upper-crust cliche?

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I wasn't fond of this episode. The Amara ending was probably good by there simply wasn't enough build up to her sudden heel turn from "I want to destroy the world" and "She destroyed every universe I created" to showing her be sad about the world dying. I mean, she'd destroyed worlds before, why is this one different.

I could have done with far less Toni, aka Posh British Lady, time. I guess they want us to start out seeing her as human. She loves her son! She's nice to the help! But I would have rather had Sam or Cas talk to God instead of her.

I loathed the forgiveness of Cas by Dean. Mostly because Sam is still getting hammered for releasing Lucifer way back in season 4 when all he was doing was trying to keep him caged. Plus what Cas did was stupid and didn't really help. I'm sure Dean thought they were all going to die and didn't want Cas to die feeling guilty, but he's never let go of Sam's betrayals, so why Cas gets a pass I have no clue.

I hope Mary sees both Dean AND Sam, but I'm expecting lots of Dean bonding time while Sam is off being tortured, questioned, held by the English MOL and he will be released in time to wave to Mary as she ascends to heaven. Because that's the way it always goes for Sam.

I do wish that God had released Michael and Adam before he took off for vacation. I may not care tons about either of them, but they took a hit trying to fulfill what Michael thought God wanted and even if he wasn't God's favorite son, leaving him and Adam trapped in a Cage in Hell is pretty awful. God could have at least let them out and told the angels to take care of them or laid down some Godly healing then sent them on their way to heaven. They didn't have to show it, just have God say "I've free Michael and Adam the will be at peace in heaven". Sadly I think his not doing that means we will get more angel politics in the coming seasons.

I also a little surprised that the angels find out God is alive and none of them show any interest in saying howdy. They could have said the angels wanted to see their father and have God refuse, but just not caring seems odd.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Augh! How did I forget to put Adam and Michael in the poll?? I forgot them just like Chuck did. :-(

[anactoria.livejournal.com]

I don't know anything about S12, but I'm guessing we'll get a hunters vs. MoL kind of thing. Maybe Sam gets persuaded/coerced into working with the English MoL while he thinks Dean is dead, but he discovers they're actually up to Something Nefarious? IDK.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I wonder if Billie will be the one to tell him Dean's alive. "If Little W bit it, I'd know."

[jennygeee.livejournal.com]

I really like this episode.

You should have had a "I liked everything about this episode" as you had a few "I disliked everything" options, also you should have had a "Dean and the rewind button" as you had a "Sam and the rewind button" - just saying ;)

[fanspired]

Is this your first Caranfindel poll? :P

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

{HIGH FIVES YOU}

[jennygeee.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I wish LJ had a 'like' button :)

[jennygeee.livejournal.com]

LOL no I'm afraid not :) But I really wanted to tick a "Dean and the rewind button" so badly :D

[fanspired]

Awwwwwww. Well, as a consolation, I'm sure you'll appreciate this lovely screencap I came across: http://casey28.livejournal.com/1204731.html

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Are you suggesting my poll is not completely unbiased? This is a shocking accusation.

[ex1led-nyer.livejournal.com]

"Why didn't Chuck zap Dean back to the bunker before he twirled up into the sky with his sister?" That was my burningest burning question.

Did you mean why didn't Dean call Sam when he was zapped to the unknown woodsy place? He couldn't get cell reception. It has occurred to me that Dean might be in Heaven, reunited with Mary. Poor cell reception in Heaven, apparently.

I wonder whether Mary knows that she's Mary. I can't imagine her returning long-term, if only because the actress has aged (as have we all, sadly).

Even though Cas got angel-sigiled away, he did see Posh Spice for a moment and he's full-on angel again. He should be able to find Sam. (I was going to say, Cas is now an archangel, but remembered that was only in a fic I read.)

I have no idea what's going to happen in s12, except I know that if the bros are separated for more than one episode I'll be pissed. And if they move the whole operation to Europe I'll also be pissed, though I guess it would give them new monsters to hunt.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I like the idea of Dean being in heaven. Nicely twisted.

[flatlanderjr.livejournal.com]

I love "Posh Spice." I'm going to call her this from now on.

"Even though Cas got angel-sigiled away, he did see Posh Spice for a moment and he's full-on angel again. He should be able to find Sam."
Castiel still can't fly, and the show has never clarified if Sam still has the sigils hiding him from angels branded onto his ribs, so I just assume they're still there. Castiel may not be able to find Sam unless Sam prays to him.

[dreamsofspike.livejournal.com]

I actually don't think Dean is on earth at all. All through the season they hinted at the idea that Dean actually kind of WANTS the "nothingness" that Amara had on offer. The idea of everything just being OVER and him being DONE I think is something that seems peaceful to Dean, something that after everything he's been through, he'd actually want, even if he wouldn't admit it. I think that's a big part of the reason WHY he was drawn to Amara at all - she is "nothingness". Dean will hunt until he dies, but I think he's TIRED, he's broken, he craves peace and rest - and she seemed like a way for that to happen.

They also teased us with references to the Empty all season, but not a lot of info about it. And Mary Winchester's soul was "destroyed", we were told way back in season 2, and then again in season 5, when she gave her life for her boys. She's not in Heaven, she's not in Hell - to me, that sounds like whatever the Empty is, that's where she'd be.

I think Amara didn't bring Mary back - she sent Dean to the Empty. And I think that IF British Lady shot Sam, he may be there soon, too. And Dean and Sam will spend some quality time with their Mom while they find a way to get back from the Empty, and Cas and Crowley will buddy-cop it up on Earth and try to find a way to get Sam and Dean back.

Chuck told Dean "Earth will be fine. They have you and Sam." - Which seems a bit ominous, like maybe - what if they DON'T? Dean and Sam are the "firewall between light and darkness". But if they're NOT on earth at all? What happens then?

I kinda think that might be where it's headed next season.

Or maybe... Amara sent Dean back in time. They also hinted at THAT as being something she could do, because she was briefly going to do it for Rowena. So... there's that possibility.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

This is all very intriguing!!!

[flatlanderjr.livejournal.com]

Interesting theories, although those are all far more intriguing than I expect to see in a season-long arc on Supernatural. I guess we'll see.

"Or maybe... Amara sent Dean back in time. They also hinted at THAT as being something she could do, because she was briefly going to do it for Rowena. So... there's that possibility."
I don't remember that. In 11x22, Rowena and another witch were working together to cast a spell so they can travel back in time together. Amara wasn't involved in that. Is that what you're talking about, or was there another scene I've forgotten where Amara offered to send Rowena back in time?

[dreamsofspike.livejournal.com]

When Rowena and Amara were talking outside the warehouse where Amara and Chuck had their confrontation - Rowena had made a deal with her offscreen (of course it was all part of Chuck's plan) and Rowena was like, "So that's the deal - safe passage for me and my friend back in time before you end the world."

Which indicates that even if she had no intention whatsoever of keeping that deal, Amara had at least SAID that she would do it. :P

[flatlanderjr.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah. I'd forgotten all about that part of 11x23. Thanks!

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

Sam and my rewind button is quite possibly my OTP ;D

I know nothing about season 12, and like you I'd like to try and keep it that way, but I do love all the ideas and possibilities!!! After the huge myth arc we've just had, I kinda like the idea of MoL baddies, something more small scale but still powerful and important, maybe even using knowledge and intellect as a weapon. I also kinda like the idea of seeing some Sam and Dean separation, seeing them really fight to get back to each other, and then for a huge big reunion of brotherly feels and hugs!!!

And Mary? I'm open to that, but I have no idea where they're taking it. Is she real? Is she back for good, or just temporarily? Will we see a huge Winchester family reunion, all working together to save Sam? Or will Sam be left out of it? Is Dean the only one who can see her? So many ideas.

Another wonderful poll!!! Thank you so much for putting these together :)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Yes, I like the use of human foes. I always do.

Thanks for being here!

[gidgetgal9.livejournal.com]

Kay, so, not my fave finale- but I did love some- like some and hated some- but willing to hand wave to get out of the corner they painted themselves in with God/Amara.

I actually was mad about Amara giving him Mary because if you were going to bring a character back- BOBBY! That made me mad it wasn't Bobby- but that was a personal feeling. I'm okay if Mary is back to sacrifice herself to save Sam- to make up for her deal that set Sam up for a crappy life with demon blood. But still... Bobby!

I have a lot of Why, What questions but there are so many none sing to me as the burning one...

I will just be happy I liked and loved a few of the moments in this one- and I loved a lot of this season. :)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Oh, there was so much to love this season!!! I can forgive a lot.

[fanspired]

> Why didn't Dean just call Sam?
Or pray to Cas?

Do prayers work any more? I recall having similar questions when Charlie died and someone pointed out that Angels couldn't zap any more since Metatron turfed them out of Heaven, so maybe they can't heal or hear prayers any more either (though why they didn't get all their powers back again when they reclaimed Heaven beats me).

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I don't really understand what's going on in heaven. Is it closed to new souls? Do prayers work?

[fanspired]

I think they've just done a fudge job on neutering the angels' powers because its become an inconvenience to plotting to have an almost all powerful being around who can solve all the problems with a snap of the fingers. It's a bit like the eagles in Lord of the Rings.

[fanspired]

I think MOL have probably stolen the idea of an icer gun from the Agents of Shield and she's just immobilized and bagged Sam. She said she'd come to take him in so killing him clearly wasn't the object.

[casey679.livejournal.com]

I actually think we needed MORE of posh British bitch. Like, starting at the beginning of the season. Shoving her into the final episode felt like a hack job. I would rather her have shown up at the very end with NO fanfare or shots of her, just "Taking you in for all your huntery huntering" and left WTFmate?!?! until next season than what we got.

As far as Mary - someone on Tumblr said it best, I don't want happy peaceful Mary. I want tough competent hunter Mary. I want angsty, angry Mary upset at seeing what has happened to her family and at having been the cause of it. I want a Mary that loves John enough to get him out of Hell.

(I can forgive them for not giving us John, though, because JDM is so damn happy to be playing Negan and the shooting schedules would conflict.)

[fanspired]

OK, how about this: Dean is more forgiving of Cas than Sam because Dean has much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, higher expectations of Sam. Sam is his idol whom he relies on to be his touchstone of goodness so Dean feels utterly lost and betrayed when Sam topples from the pedestal Dean expects him to sit on, whereas Cas is only an angel and a dick by nature. Yeah, that must be it.

[flawedteacup.livejournal.com]

I think that the Chuck and Amara whisping away to smoke thing was about as good as it was going to get. And frankly, when I see a Winchester Brothers Hug like that one, I really can't be bothered to be pissed off about everything that I should be pissed off about.

I keep going back and forth about feeling put-upon that Dean gets YET ANOTHER "family is everything" speech that saves the day. Then I think that if they had Sam give that speech and be the bomb it would be too much like Swan Song.

WRT the Men of Letters in the UK, well, that's kind of a creaky retcon. There's going to be so much handwaving I can't even think of a metaphor to describe it... but, when they are busy calling out the brothers for Apocalypse 1.0 maybe Cas will finally admit he let Sam out of the panic room and, I DON'T KNOW, APOLOGIZE???

[ms-anthrophy.livejournal.com]

I think Ms. Posh Bitch was blaming both Sam and Dean, she (and Sam, ouch, ouch my poor heart) just thinks Dean's dead so she addressed Sam. And that's why I hate her. I mean, the Winchesters are trying to fix Chuck's fuck-ups against impossible odds and they usually eventually succeed, while she stays in her nice house, doing her fucking nails and playing secret society. I think I'm going to enjoy hating her, so I really hope she's a new villain and not a new ally with a rough start.

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

This finale blew chunks. Just about the only thing I liked was Sam. Even the bro hug didn't affect me, since I've seen countless bro hugs before one or the other one marches off to death/whatever. The show lost me at this one.