Episode poll 12.01: Keep Calm and Carry On

[caranfindel]

[Poll #2055786]

No spoilers in the comments, please!

Comments

[septembers-coda.livejournal.com]

I checked “awkward exposition” because the reason for the goddamn torture porn (which I hate, though I do have a caveat to that) was wafer-thin, and even Sam’s reasons for not talking kind of were, and the whole approach of the British MoL to the situation doesn’t make any sense, and I feel like that’s because the writers haven’t actually decided what’s going to happen yet. But other than that, I adored the episode.

My caveat to hating the torture is that I do love seeing Sam tied up and vulnerable and BAREFOOT (swoon)! I wonder if we’ve ever really seen Sam’s feet before? DELICIOUS. Anytime anything unusual is actually uncovered on Sam, I’m happy, though the nature of the torture kind of killed that particular pleasure. Yuck.

I actually kind of liked how they did the psychological torture, and I always love to see Sam react to that, and as others have said, it’s wonderful to see him rise above it and be a clever BAMF anyway. It KILLED me that he didn’t make it out. KILLED ME. And made me dread that that probably means the evil torturer guy is going to show up, and I’ve had more than enough Sam torture. I don’t mind if he suffers in captivity in other ways, but UGH NO MORE TORUTRE PORN, and we did that really-good-at-torture thing with Alistair already (and I also hated that. So. Enough). I hate the idea of Mr. Ketch.

I think it’s interesting that Toni appears to be beginning to feel bad, particularly, maybe, about Jessica? I want them to take it in that direction, although it’s hard to be OK with anything about her at this point. She kind of doesn’t make sense. Weirdly, I thought Minion seemed almost to be a better person—at least she seems to prefer a good clean fight, and I liked how badass she was, although I’m not sure that made sense either—just that one human with nothing but maybe-magical brass knuckles could best a super-badass human AND an angel. I mean, I LOVE that she was so tough, but Dean is a very experienced, very burly brawler, and Cas is a warrior angel! I can’t complain too much, though, because I loved how it went down (though as you said, it was pretty predictable that Mary was gonna wake up and take her out. But I loved “Thanks, Mom!” too).

Also, yes! I really DID love the demons! They were hilarious, and I enjoyed their performances. I liked Crowley’s interaction with them, too, and it’s actually been a while since I was interested in what they were gonna do with Crowley, but I am now.

Overall, I really, really liked it despite some flaws I perceived, and am interested in where they’re taking it. HURRAY SEASON 12!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I checked “awkward exposition” because the reason for the goddamn torture porn (which I hate, though I do have a caveat to that) was wafer-thin, and even Sam’s reasons for not talking kind of were, and the whole approach of the British MoL to the situation doesn’t make any sense, and I feel like that’s because the writers haven’t actually decided what’s going to happen yet.

To me, it makes sense that Sam wouldn't tell her anything, because she's already revealed herself to be an enemy. No one with good intentions would start by shooting, kidnapping, and threatening to torture him. The part that makes no sense is that she would start as an aggressor instead of an ally. And that's why I think she has to be lying. (And also stupid.)

And we've seen Sam's feet before, briefly, in "Clap Your Hands if You Believe." It was Soulless!Sam, but he still had Sam's feet. ;-)

TERRIBLE PUN ALERT

[septembers-coda.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was the one thing that made sense about Sam's refusal to talk (and though I enjoyed the snark, why taunt someone into torturing you? I mean, wouldn't the preference always be for LESS torture?). I really agree that her being an aggressor, especially so instantly and horribly, doesn't make sense; that's the whole thing about her character and the BMoL that's way WTF.

Mmm, I love Clap Your Hands... so I don't know how I missed Sam's feet in it! I wondered if maybe we saw them in The Born Again Identity (cuz, mental hospital PJs). Soulless Sam's feet are just as good-- Sam wouldn't keep his soul there! No soul in his feet, but soles of his feet.

Ugh. Sorry.*









*not really sorry

Re: TERRIBLE PUN ALERT

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Dude. No.

XD

Re: TERRIBLE PUN ALERT

[septembers-coda.livejournal.com]

oh but YES.

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

Just jumping in to day that I think we saw Sam's bare feel in season 10 maybe? All I remember is he was running down a bunker corridor with a gun and he'd just woken up and he had bare feet (I assume Dean was having a MoC nightmare?)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Oh, how could I forget that one???

[septembers-coda.livejournal.com]

ah, good to know! I'm guessing 12.01 is the first time we saw them up close, but no sighting of any skin on Sam can be discounted. ;-)

[themegalosaurus.livejournal.com]

We also see Sam's bare feet in 'time for a wedding' when Becky has him tied up in bed (I know I know we would all rather forget that episode) and when he is wearing his yoga outfit in 'the purge'!

(do i know too much about this? PROBABLY)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Too much knowledge about unclothed parts of Sam Winchester's anatomy? I'm having a hard time understanding this concept.

[septembers-coda.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Such a thing does not exist. ;-)

[septembers-coda.livejournal.com]

Nope, S7 Time for a Wedding is actually a favorite of mine. And yes, how could I forget the bare feet there? and OF COURSE in the yoga outfit!!

Clearly I need to delve into the DVDs with this in mind... ;-)

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

Loved it! And although I don't like Sam being hurt, he looking fecking gorgeous all wet and damaged! *blushes*

I think Mary is herself, I don't see why Amara would've brought her back as a demon or angel or something else. The scenes with her and Dean were so sweet - after she'd knocked him down! - with Dean trying to ease her into 2016 and their lives as hunters.

Loved it!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Mmmm... wet damaged Sam...

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Best. Comment. Ever.

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

*curtsies*

[frozen_delight]

I ticked the "demons" box because I always love seeing Crowley, even if it's in the company of his stupid ex-minions. Did you not see his sad, uncombed hair? He is obviously grieving for Dean...

As for things I didn't love: Everything about the LOL! I have never before hated a character quite as passionately as I do Toni... She's such a misogynist stereotype!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I just couldn't get into Crowley. Normally I love the limey bastard, but in this ep he was using valuable time that could have been spent on Wet!Damaged!Sam.

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

I wonder why he didn't just give her the names of dead hunters

Or just Walt and Roy. >;)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Oh hell yeah!

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Or lie and give her Cole's name, heh...

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Awesome.

[jennygeee.livejournal.com]

I ticked "Still don't get it" for "When did you catch on that the driver told Dean about the veterinarian right after Dean said 'what else do you know' and then they cut away?"

Can you explain to a dumbo like me please? The only part I remember is Cas talking to the driver :)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Whoops! I was wrong. It was Cas, not Dean. He asks the driver for the name of the blonde woman, and the driver says he doesn't know, and Cas says "What DO you know?" Then they cut away. Presumably the driver tells them he drove Toni and Sam to the vet.

[septembers-coda.livejournal.com]

NOW I get it, I was confused too. Yes, I assume he told Cas about the vet.

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed Toni, and the hints that we saw of her (she has a kid, and who is this torturer guy who she despises? Maybe the kids father?) and if the BMoL is going to be the big bad, I like that they're trying to take it in a different direction.

I'm in the Mark P as Lucifer camp, so if we see him again, I'd much rather they give us a lame excuse to let him be Lucifer ('Oh look Nick had a twin brother' or 'I used some magic to bring back Nick's body')!!!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

If Anna and Cas can keep their vessels, I don't know why Lucifer couldn't.

[ms-anthrophy.livejournal.com]

I just really, really hope they kill Toni. That's the deciding factor in whether she's someone I love to hate or someone I just hate. Ms. Posh Bitch is walking Dunning-Kruger effect, tortures Sam for no good reason and seriously, her fugly trousers were a crime against humanity. Her Trump-esque quote made me feel she's gonna die because it alleviated her general unpleasantness, but hey, I've been wrong before.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Yes, those were some ill-fitting pants! Interesting and insightful comment on Dunning-Kruger.

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

I loved Sam in this episode, although I am sick and tired of him being tortured. Esp. after he told Toni he'd been tortured by the devil. A side observation about Lucifer: Crowley said Luci was "burning thru bodies"--how did he get all of those people to say yes, when he can't lie?

As always, your polls are almost the best thing about any episode (pace wet Sam). BAMF Cas was good but overplayed, as if the show was saying, "Look! Over here! We've got S5 Cas back!" Misha must be relieved to have something straightforward to play. They're overdoing it right now, but it should tone down a tad as the season goes along.

The British MOL is sooo stupid. The whole "we've eradicated monsters" bit was ridiculous. I don't care at all. And I'd like to see Toni shot through the head. An egregious tired stereotype well past the sell-by date.

Otherwise, I genuinely enjoyed it. Some of the Dean/Mom interactions choked me up, and Sam Smith was great throughout. I loved the demons, they were so much silly fun.

Mostly I'm amazed at how good the episode was, given how lousy the main arc of S11 was and how badly it was executed.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

How DID Lucifer get those people to consent? Especially in that family where he burned through all of them? Good question!

BAMF Cas was good but overplayed, as if the show was saying, "Look! Over here! We've got S5 Cas back!" Misha must be relieve to have something straightforward to play.

I was just so relieved to have good old angry warrior Cas instead of Casifer or Steve or hiding-in-Sam's-room-with-Netflix... although it all fell apart when he took on Minion!

[z-publicizes.livejournal.com]

Love your polls, I really do.

Supernatural would not be Supernatural without torture!porn. Or awkward exposition. I am zen about it.

I loved some (oh SAM and how much of Mary's return was fronting her PoV and continuity on some of the things I care about) and I was low-key annoyed by some, but my annoyance was mostly not this-episode specific. I just don't see the Brit MoLs working as antagonists - not as the evil genius type that they seem to be set up as. We have to buy that they were incompetent enough - hamstrung by bureaucracy or whatever - to fail to intervene in multiple global crises up to this point. Which puts them on the very short list of organizations not qualified to rag on how the Winchesters have been running things.

I did like the glimpses of nuance we got into Toni as a character and the implicit parallel I thought I saw them drawing between her and Mary. If we get less-heavy handed debate over tactics and more character-driven narrative, I might come around to this plot. Maybe.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Supernatural would not be Supernatural without torture!porn.

And I wouldn't love it as much as I do. (Yes, I'm well aware, I have a problem!)

Which puts them on the very short list of organizations not qualified to rag on how the Winchesters have been running things.

Good point! How many times did they sit and wait for the world to burn rather than "overstep?"

[casey679.livejournal.com]

Things I Loved: I loved teenage-girl-in-a-big-man's-body demon, and was sad he died. A brief appearance every few episodes like tiny-angry-demon from last season would have been awesome. Also, I may live to regret this, but OMG foreshadowing! Yes, I will take your offhand reference to creepy psychopath BMOL who will undoubtedly show up later on. Please, writers, continue to think more than one episode ahead.

Things I Didn't Love: The BMOL have been discussed a lot at my house. Could they have been any more arrogant or incompetent at getting intel? But ultimately, the writers' biggest challenge at the start of S12 was to get us to care about the BMOL, especially after S11's cosmic plot. And we do care. We hate them. We hate that they started off with guns. We hate that they are arrogant and snooty. We hate that they did nothing to stop the apocalypse (I tried to come up with any other reason for them not to have interfered and couldn't, so I won't blame the writers for settling on that explanation). We hate them hurting Sam. (SAAAAAAM!) I have seen long, in-depth breakdowns of how the way they protect Britain would be absolutely ineffective in America. I have seen discussions of why the ice cold water torture can be effective, and folks arguing that the hallucination special effects are intentionally terrible to illustrate how ineffective they are on Sam post-Hallucifer. That said, I think those sections could have been written better, and that the special Fx team should have made Sam look even more beaten up after cut-aways if they wanted us to believe that torture Minion is good at her job, and I am choosing to accept the flimsy explanation that the BMOL-induced hallucinations were intentionally terrible, but overall I think the scenes were still effective. We hate them.

Sam: I selected "discuss in comments" because I could talk about him in this episode all day. SO AWESOME.

Dean: I was okay with Dean not immediately being in paranoid hunter mode. He'd just had God entrust him and his brother with guarding the world and say it was in good hands (HAH TAKE THAT BMOL), and had Amara say she was giving him something he needed, and then his Mom showed up. I think Dean is entitled to think, for a just a few minutes, that the world is okay and he gets to be happy. He'd left Sam with Cas, and had no reason to think that they were in immediate danger. And he did freak out the minute he realized Sam was gone. Also, fuck, Jensen straight-out broke that phone. No prop work. He just fucking broke it. DAMN.

On the other hand, S9 pre-MOC Dean could take on a room full of demons, and S12 Dean can't take on one woman with magic brass knuckles? I'm going to assume he's winded and concussed from the car accident. Yup.

Cas: Withholding judgment. Banishing an angel canonically diminishes their power, so maybe that's why he couldn't take on a human, or maybe her Enochian-glyphed brass knuckles were just that badass. He also couldn't push the car across the road by himself, or teleport back to Lebanon, so leaning towards not at full power. Love the attitude, though. (Did not love: Leaving a guy on the roadside. Move him to safety!)

Sam being tortured: What makes this awesome is that Sam didn't break. We see exactly how strong and determined he is here. Often when he's fighting, he gets taken down seemingly easily, so it's nice to see that he's an utter badass when it comes to stamina and willpower.

The BMOL: Of COURSE they have an ulterior motive. When you show up to a discussion with a gun from minute one, you're not there to offer help. You're there to take over and remove the "problematic" elements. Posh Spice is completely lying to Sam about what's going to happen to him. (It's possible her superiors are lying to her.)

Lucifer: Withholding judgment. I miss Pellegrino, but I think that Lucifer is a little played out; they can't bring him back without retreading old ground.

Side observation: Kudos to the show for continuing to add more female cast members. One episode in and Mary already has a surprising amount of depth.

[(Anonymous)]

As a Brit, I quite enjoy having Brits portrayed as high-quality villains. But don't give us these sub-par British villains! Alan Rickman will be turning in his grave!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

We hate them hurting Sam. (SAAAAAAM!)

{whispers} But we also kind of like it...

[themegalosaurus.livejournal.com]

I loved how high octane Cas was about saving Sam and I wanted you to have a Dean option like 'took kind of a long time about coming to Sam's rescue given the trail of blood in the Bunker'. No time to gaze lovingly at the Impala, Dean! She will still be there in the morning! Sam's precious thigh blood (?!!?!?!) may not!!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Good point. Dean wasn't in much of a hurry to rescue his brother. >:(