Episode poll 12.03: 'The Foundry'

[caranfindel]

[Poll #2056750]

As always, no spoilers in the comments please!

Comments

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

Your polls always make me laugh, thank you!

I love the very thought of David Cassidy playing Lucifer! I adored him in The Partridge Family, he was so pretty. And it would be so cool to have Ruby number 1's dad playing Lucifer!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't it though?

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

I think I'd love it, hee hee!

[elwarre.livejournal.com]

If I try to put myself in Mary's shoes, my soul just...withers and dies.

Obviously, I've never come back from the dead, but I do have two children, and if I woke up tomorrow and they were suddenly in their thirties and emotionally traumatized beyond all recognition, I...I have no idea what I would do, really. But I can't criticize Mary for needing to step away for a bit.

I think it's really important to remember that Mary died. She didn't skip out on her kids, she died and got to be done with all the earth-y nonsense. I know the kids she's missing in heaven aren't real, but I get the sense that people in heaven don't really experience it that way. If we're going to let Sam be traumatized by a hallucinated rape (which yes, I think we should), then we need to let Mary be traumatized by the absence of hallucinated (or angelically synthesized, or whatever) children.

I really loved this plot development, actually, because there wasn't an easy answer, and no one was obviously at fault. It was the sort of thing that might actually happen when you throw together a bunch of wounded people who love each other but also have needs of their own. GIVE ME ALL THAT HEARTBREAK, YO.

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

This was my primary reaction to that episode in a nutshell. I wept for the boys, sure, but I totally sobbed for Mary. I can't imagine my babies being taken from me and suddenly being told that these grown-ass men are them. No they're not! What the hell kinda sick joke is this?! Mary felt personally compelled to find out what had happened to those ghost children. Of course she did! And she didn't really want those two big guys coming along in the first place -- Dean just invited himself and Sam along on that hunt like he expected she would be fine with it. What a pain in the ass he is!

At least Sam seems to be trying to understand her and expressing some sympathy for her situation.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, all of this. How can we say Sam's experience was real and it counts but Mary's was not and doesn't?

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

Oh I feel very bad for being quite excited for all the angsty sad and wounded Sam and Dean that I'm hoping we'll get (Dean will bury it, I think, or try to, and then he'll get snappish at Sam for talking about it or bringing it up).

Maybe she'll phone them on that super cool motel cordless phone!!! ;)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Ha ha!

[brightly-lit.livejournal.com]

Ahh, Shaun Cassidy, my first-ever crush. We used to choreograph dances to his album! And moon over his pretty pretty picture on the cover.

[smalltrolven.livejournal.com]

ahhh me too, he was the first ever celebrity poster I had on my wall. Dadoorunrundadoorunrun...

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

{sigh}

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

Bwahaha! Just let me say I enjoyed taking this poll way too much (as in, I'm procrastinating again when I should be writing or doing laundry on my day off but LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF IT!)

Most of my answers were pretty fascetious, I'm afraid. I did like Mary's haircut. Isn't there are tradition of cutting hair as an expresion of grief? Cuz that's the way it felt when she did it. Also, Dean's comment about Sam's hair sounded so gay, I couldn't help thinking Mary must see what a couple they are, and that's at least part of the reason she's leaving.

Are we allowed to spoil for this episode? Did I just mess up?

[kribban.livejournal.com]

There is a tradition of cutting your own hair while suffering PTSD from being expelled from Heaven, even. Buffy did it!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

No, the spoiler rule is only for future episodes. You're cool.

[kribban.livejournal.com]

The bike is apparently a Prince reference, just like the motel room design.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

{gasp} Is this true??? I love it! (And now I'm remembering the weird purplish art above the bed...)

[fufaraw]

All I could think of when they hung a big flashing Dean-shaped arrow pointing toward the bike was Jensen's dream of swapping the Impala keys for the bike and riding off alone. I have no idea if those two things are related in any way, since one was RL (well, dream) and the ep was scripted, but...that's my mind for ya.

I had all sympathy for Mary in this, and some empathy for Sam, who was trying to connect and help Mary adjust. And while I understand Dean's issues, his avoidance is No Help At All, to him or anybody else, and if that boy doesn't get some therapy, and soon, he's going to turn into somebody who wounds anybody close to him, just from the angst-sparks he's throwing off. Um. I may have issues with avoidance. Little bit.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Yes, I understand Dean and I love him, but I want to grab his pretty shoulders and shake him and say stop it.

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

As always, a scrumptious poll! I'm sort of brain-dead; we got back from vacation yesterday and I've only just been able to catch up on life, 2 Walking Dead eps and this week's SPN.

Side note to everything: I have to say I was pissed that Mary didn't say "I love you" to Dean, or hug him. Way to further mess up your already massively fucked-up son, Mary.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Hope you had a lovely trip! I'm behind on LJ so if you posted pics I haven't seen them yet.

And, as I said elsewhere, remember that Mary did try to hug Dean. She stepped toward him, and he backed away and turned his head. So I can't place all the blame on her for that.

[toratio.livejournal.com]

I really want them to do something interesting with Lucifer. I think bringing Mark back would be fucking awesome. But I want Samifer. And/or Marifer.

I gather the bike belongs to Mr Ketch. I'm guessing the distinctiveness is that it's a British bike.

I really like Mary and I'm liking the story line, but I'm having trouble with the changes in Sam and Dean's relationship. There's a lot of Sam being pushed aside by Dean, and I'm wondering if that's going to change now that Mary is no longer the perfect creature Dean thinks she is.

I'm liking that they made her so complex, because the last thing I wanted was for her second name to be Sue.

[z-publicizes.livejournal.com]

Mmm, Samifer. Like, objectively I wouldn't want a retread of that storyline or Lucifer getting inside Sam ever again. But, like, aesthetically: yes please.

Has Sam been pushed aside by Dean or is it that their relationship has been sidelined by the plot? Anyway, I would expect Dean's mommy-issues to make him more closed-off towards Sam going forward. I don't think he'd be comfortable discussing his resentment of Mary or abandonment issues, especially not with Sam coming at the issue from such a divergent pov.

[toratio.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there's kind of a lot of reasons why Samifer shouldn't happen, but, fuck, yes it just needs to be a thing.

I think it has been sidelined to an extent. I think in a lot of ways Sam has gone back to being the little brother, now that there's a parental figure again. Because season 11 there was a lot more honesty and mutual understanding between them, that Sam's an adult. That might slide again now.

And yeah, I think they're going to clash over how to deal with Mary. But they did with Adam as well. And John.

[z-publicizes.livejournal.com]

I once got practically the same haircut of angst that Mary did but I went to a salon, like a wuss, instead of going with kitchen scissors like a true post-resurrection sf/f heroine (Buffy did it too).

I think Mary is the Winchester that got the most fucked over in the free-will department. I've thought so ever since that episode with the Cupid in season 5 that revealed she and John were magic-roofied into popping out the boys. So it's nice to see her finally getting the chance to fight back, to resist her fate the way the menfolk did.

Sam saying, "She's not a thing" was my favorite part hands down. The writers are at least somewhat aware of the troubling implications of having her de-fridged as a 'prize,' hallelujah.

As for the dynamic between her and her sons now - I am 100% in her corner but I can appreciate how deeply painful it is for Sam and Dean and why Dean especially is going to have an agonizingly hard time coming to terms with it. And that's why it's a good decision narratively - the actress is a guest star and since the character has to be shuffled aside for a while this is the best way to do it. Respect Mary's agency and subjective experience while creating tension and repressed issues between Sam and Dean that can be a through-line to when Mary makes her next appearance.

If her next appearance isn't as Lucifer's vessel. That does make a certain sense what with how quickly the show did away with the Rick Springfield vessel. Then hey! Maybe Mary will get a turn to sacrifice herself by way of doing-away with Lucifer again. How's that for a fount of manpain! Would also get us out of the pit-falls of a Lucifer redemption arc but at a terrible cost, so yeah, that sounds like Supernatural.

[gidgetgal9.livejournal.com]

When I was a little kid and played house I was married to Keith Partridge and a tween I pretended to be married to Shaun Cassidy. So when that comment was made my whole family looked at me to take in the squee. LOL I loved your Lucifer coming back comments and all the Cassidy options. I will add that unfortunately Rueben is dead so no dice there.

I can hand wave so much for the joy that comment along with the ending gave to me. Just saying.

Loved the poll and reaction post as always you are awesome!

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

The answers where I wanted to add comments. I really want Rick Springfield to come back. He' s done a great job as Lucifer. He made Lucifer truly frightening and powerful. In response to who I want to play Lucifer 1) Is Rick Springfield 2) is almost anyone not named Misha Collins. Misha really didn't work for me as Lucifer, at all.

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

He was terrible. Unfortunately he has real limitations as an actor. When he was "rabid" it was bad; when he was Cassifer it was really bad.

[fanspired]

You know, when Mary said she missed her baby and her little boy, and Sam said "they're right in front of you", I think she missed his point completely. He wasn't just saying that the men in front of you are the same people as the baby and the little boy. He was literally saying that the baby and the boy are actually right in front of you, right now. (One look at Dean's face should have shown her that). But I don't think Mary can see it. I think what she sees is two grown men who don't really need her because they have each other, and her hunting skills are obsolete. (Plus, of course, the writers needed an excuse to write the repeating guest actor out of the next couple of episodes.)

Btw, if it's any consolation, I really don't know who Shaun Cassidy, Parker Stevenson and Leif Garrett are because I think they were all after my time.

[casey679.livejournal.com]

For me, I think the big thing going on with Mary is that she needs to adjust to the new world, and Dean and Sam are trying to do so much for her that they're making it impossible. It wasn't that her hunting skills were better than Sam and Dean's so much as they were trying to protect her so much that they were making mistakes too. They're trying so hard to do everything for her and make everything okay that she can't breathe and she can't find her footing. And I wish she could have expressed that instead of skipping out, because I think the script and the actress did a great job of communicating it non-verbally, but since she's a recurring but not full cast member, it was necessary to have a reason for her to leave since she's not contracted for every episode.

Is it stupid that she left without a car or money? Quite possibly. But she was raised a hunter, she's got to have some baseline survival skills. I like to imagine that she's the one who taught John how to hustle pool.

That said, I really think Amara was kind of a dick for leaving her memories of Heaven intact like some kind of cruel trick. Or maybe she's just a Buffy fan.