Episode poll 14.19: “Jack in the Box”

[caranfindel]

[Poll #2092183]

Remember, no spoilers in the comments please, and that includes episode titles and casting information. Thank you!

Comments

[marciaelena.livejournal.com]

There wasn't anything about this episode that I liked. Absolutely nothing. There wasn't anything that broke my heart either, not in the way it should have. The writing was so atrociously bad. All characters seemed to have been replaced by pod people. I was in a rage after watching this episode. I usually like dubious episodes better on my second watch, but that didn't happen here--it was just as bad on rewatch.

There was a good story to be told here. A painful, emotionally complex story that was completely ruined by the most incompetent writing I've ever witnessed. That initial rage I felt is still lingering, and it's making me feel so very tired and so defeated. I'm expecting to be severely disappointed by the finale, and fearing that it'll be even worse than that. This episode made me feel glad that the show is ending, and I hate that so much.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Aw, that makes me sad.

[fanspired]

I think the core issue that's got people so angry with this episode is that they recognize, consciously or otherwise, that it depicted Sam and Dean abusing a child in their care.

[marciaelena.livejournal.com]

Yes, but it's also more than that. If the show is going to go there then that needs to be done well--the writing needs to be nuanced and emotional and complex, and instead it was the shittiest ever. They took their most difficult and controversial moment, one that should have made us ponder and feel, and completely fucked it up. That's the thing I'm really angry at, not where the story went, but their utter carelessness with it.

[fanspired]

You're absolutely right. I've been thinking mainly that they shouldn't have gone there at all, but maybe it's more a case of: this writing team should never have had the gall to think they were capable of pulling off a theme of this complexity.

[verucasalt123.livejournal.com]

There was a good story to be told here. A painful, emotionally complex story that was completely ruined by the most incompetent writing I've ever witnessed.

Agreed. That happened a lot this season. Stories that could have been really good except that the pacing was so terrible that everything felt rushed and unsatisfying.

[fanspired]

They've basically attempted themes above and beyond the scope of their ability.

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

I am so conflicted about the whole Jack In the Box thing! Yes, Jack was manipiluated by Duma into doing horrific things, but he thought he was doing God's work and that Sam and Dean would be proud of him. Yet if he's that easily manipulated and capable of inflicting such horror, he shouldn't be out in the world. So I can understand them wanting to keep Jack locked away, but not in that awful box, and despite how he referred to Mary's death as 'the accident' I still think they could have reasoned with him and made him realise he's on the wrong path. I was pretty horrified that they manipulated Jack into agreeing to go into the box, his trust in them and desire to please were heartbreaking. However, I think Dean would've killed anyone else who showed so little remorse, and as he can't kill Jack, this was his solution; I also think that from Dean's POV, he built the box to bury himself alive to save the world, and he thinks this is therefore something Jack would agree too! But despite all this, I loved this episode for the scene with Dean crying. Oh boy, Jensen outdid himself with the sobbing, just perfect.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I wonder if it would have gone differently if Jack hadn't been so smug when he showed up, if he hadn't called it "the accident," if he'd been as sorry as he was when he was talking to Hallucifer. But Sam was his best chance, and I think he lost Sam by being so cold instead of regretful. It made Sam think, even if for a moment, that he was too far gone - I mean, look how frightened he was when he reached out to touch his shoulder.

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

Jack did come across as smug and very unfeeling, which was just so sad. If he'd shown remorse, been a liittle scared or guilty, I'm sure they would've reacted differently.

[verucasalt123.livejournal.com]

Right, but Jack doesn't have a soul. How could he feel guilty or regretful if he doesn't have a soul? What he did to Mary was an accident. He didn't kill her on purpose. He was making angels, he was like hey check out this good thing I'm doing. Heaven needs angels and I'm giving them some.

At the same time, the writers wanted him to be so eager to please the Winchesters, which also, why would he feel that way if he's soulless? Why does SPN always want to forget S6 ever happened?

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

This is where this episode was frustrating, because when Jack was alone he was obviously feeling remorse and/or guilt about 'the accident' and was afraid to face Sam and Dean, yet when he saw them, he showed no emotion at all. And yet he was so proud, telling them that he was making angels, so he still craves their affection, which as you said, he wouldn't care about if he was soulless! It could tie you in knots.

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

I felt so angry and shocked when I first watched this, and just as angry (if less shocked) upon rewatch. Of course Dean's in pain and I cried when he cried. And I can understand how angry he is with himself as well as with Jack over what happened to Mary. I can see why he might be so upset that he would do something this drastic while telling himself and Sam that they were keeping Jack safe (from hurting people) by temporarily locking him in the box until they figured out a way to get his soul back. But forever? Buried alive forever??? Dean might be willing to sacrifice himself that way to save the world, but it's just not okay for him and Sam to do that to somebody they love. The fact that Jack got out is beside the point. The Winchesters never should have done that in the first place.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

No, they shouldn't have, but I can see how they got there. Dean was angry and panicky, and Sam doesn't trust himself to make any decisions, given what happened to the AU hunters, and the fact that he blames himself for Jack being in their lives in the first place. (Even though, as I said, things would have been so much worse if he hadn't welcomed Jack.)

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

I agree with you that things would have been worse if they hadn’t welcomed Jack in the first place. I’m still hoping enough of the Winchesters’ influence rubbed off on Jack that he realizes he needs to think harder about his WWWD mantra and stop killing people. But he’s not himself right now. He doesn’t have his soul, and I keep thinking about how the Winchesters give each other the “get out of jail free card” when one of them is possessed or under the influence of the Mark of Cain. It feels hypocritical not to apply that here.

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

I totally believed Dean would, being angry/afraid over Jack being an unpredictable loose cannon, convince himself that sealing Jack in the box was the only choice they had.

I also think, after Dean's emotions settled down/Sam worked on him, he would have let Jack out for another chance.

Where he screwed up was in abandoning Jack in the locked room. Had they stayed in the vicinity to assure Jack they had not left him to rot (even if they were going to do that) time could have been bought to come up with another solution.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

If they'd been honest with him, if they'd said "we don't know how to fix this, but we promise we're going to try," and if they'd kept him company, given him a phone, prayed to him, whatever... it might have worked. But they did it all SO wrong.

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

Exactly!

But then, making bad decisions while trying to accomplish good ends is kind of the Winchester modus operandi for the whole series...

[fanspired]

It's not that the events of this episode don't make sense exactly, it's that you can see the strings. You can see the writers manipulating the characters into an unacceptable premise, just to manufacture drama and all for the sake of a bad pun. And I don't think we can just blame Buckleming for this - it's clearly been the game plan ever since the box was introduced, so this was a team effort.

And this is what makes it unacceptable. The show has spent two seasons selling us the idea that Jack is Sam and Dean's kid. There's really no circumstance under which they might deliberately consign their kid to being buried alive that wouldn't leave a bad taste in the mouth, but this is the worst circumstance possible. Show has made us watch our 'heroes' trick their kid, a character we've been taught to love, into a most horrible fate that he didn't really deserve. There was no suggestion that this was just a temporary fix until they found a better solution. Dean's plan was to just commit his kid to this horrible fate and wash his hands of him. Yes, he's grieving for the loss of his mother - but Mary was a character that show never succeeded in making the audience care about. Yes, he was willing to go in the box himself, except he didn't, and Jack lost his soul as a consequence. And Sam went along with this plan. Yes, we've been set up to accept Sam just following Dean's lead because he's lost confidence in his own decisions, but Jack is his kid for chrissake, and, not to mention, Jack sacrificed his soul to save Sam's life. True, Sam may have been about to suggest looking for a better solution, but it was too little too late. Bottom line: Jack deserved so much better, from both of them.

Net result: in order to dramatically justify turning a beloved character into the Big Bad, without losing audience sympathy for the character, show has sacrificed audience sympathy for its own leads. The sin is not that its made the premise unbelievable; the writers have actually manipulated the characters with as much skill as they're capable of (and I say that advisedly), and the actors have also done their very best to help sell the premise. The sin is that it was a horrible premise to begin with.

In summary, when the show's heroes actually become the bad guys in the eyes of the audience: that's a BAD DRAMATIC CHOICE.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I think Dean doesn’t think of Jack as Jack any more. He’s a bomb now.

[fanspired]

Agreed, but my point wasn't about Dean's character motivation. I've already said that I think the writers have made that believable to the best of their ability. I'm talking about the show as a fictional construct in which Jack has always been, and still is being, framed and played as a child, with Sam and Dean having been framed as his parents. And I'm saying that to now have them actually use their parental status as a tool to trick Jack into the box is a horrible premise to ask the audience to accept. Apologies if I'm not making myself clear.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

No, I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just saying that the character’s motivation changed, but the writers didn’t bother to walk us through that. And yet, Dean has done some pretty awful things to Sam, who he “parented” even more than he did Jack, in the guise of saving him from himself and/or saving the world. So this capability is nothing new.

[fanspired]

Ah, but back in the day the show had writers who could create an absorbing story that drew you in and made you believe you were watching real people in terrible situations making terrible choices. Nowadays, alas, I look at the screen and all I see is characters in bad plot scenarios and the clumsy writing process that put them there :(

[fanspired]

Addendum:

And, what's more, there is one very glaring plot inconsistency: when Dean was trying to save the world from Michael, his plan wasn't just to go in the box, it was to have it dropped in the ocean. If he thought that was a necessary precaution for Michael, why wouldn't he do at least as much with Jack? Lets face it, if they thought storing Jack in the bunker's vaults would be enough, they could have stored Dean. in room 5b as a temporary solution while Sam worked on plan B for getting rid of Michael, and then Jack would never have had to sacrifice his soul in the first place. : /

[verucasalt123.livejournal.com]

Right. So. Remember that time I said I'll never get to the end of a SPN episode and be like "well, that whole thing just sucked ass"?

~sigh~

Man, I really had to search for redeeming qualities here. Dumah is dead. Yay that. Also, Castiel was being kind of badassy for at least part of the episode, so.

BuckLeming have done a lot of terrible things over their years of writing this show. They've created many out of character moments for our boys. But what they did to Dean Winchester in this ep...I don't even know what to say about it.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I always wonder how much came from the showrunners and how much came from the Bucklemming. Was their assignment just to get Jack inside the box, or were the details planned out for them?

[verucasalt123.livejournal.com]

It's hard to tell. Dabb has really disappointed me this season, starting up storylines then just kind of wandering away from them because he saw something shiny or whatever. It's super frustrating.