Episode poll: 11.02, "Form and Void"

[caranfindel]

[Poll #2025105]

Remember, no spoilers in the comments please!

Comments

[fanspired]

Billie really is Death in a new meatsuit.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Ooooh... I like this.

[fanspired]

Father Crowley

is more like the guy every week who says "If it weren't for you nosey kids I'd have gotten away with it!"

> Maybe Jenna was evil to begin with, and wanted to hurt people, and that's why she became a deputy, because she hoped someday she'd have an excuse to shoot an escaping prisoner (or a random road crew, no need to be fussy).

That's what I figured. Why else would you become a deputy? (Just kidding folks :P)

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

Genius!!! I love it!

[flawedteacup.livejournal.com]

Yes, that was my question... did you mean Death in his high-cheekbone, pointy-nose, fried-food-eating glory, or any personification of the principle? 'Cause Billie can be Death for me anytime. And maybe she can hang out with Sam. 'Cause Dean had his turn. And look how that turned out.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Whoever wears Death's ring becomes Death, right? Did it disintegrate with his body/vessel or did it hit the floor with a ping and roll away? To be discovered by Billie or someone else???

[ex1led-nyer.livejournal.com]

Jeez, you're so hung up on continuity! ;)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

True. Obviously I'm not the target demographic of this show - people with a short memory. ;-)

[fanspired]

Well, reapers don't really look like people, do they? That's just a glamour. We saw Tessa's true form in In My Time of Dying. So I'm guessing Death never truly looked like Julian Richings, either, and that he can just as easily look like Lisa Berry if he wants to :)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

And who wouldn't want to?

[fanspired]

Indeed. And I'll take the voice, too, while I'm at it :)

[fireheart13.livejournal.com]

Oooh, first poll-ee!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

You win!

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

What was REALLY evil is showing us Sam's delish torso and then ruining my fun with the torture

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

They definitely owe us some happy torture-free torso time!

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

Now now now now now now NOW!

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

"The Darkness?" "The Empty?" Someone give the writers a theraurus for thinking up names...

Sam is actually the only soulless person who didn't go completely nasty--remember the townfolk in the flashback ep with Josei and Henry, they all went murderous too.

And someone did write the boys in the car in the way back to the bunker:
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11561420/1/

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

The townspeople weren't as bad as Jenna, though. And thanks for the fic, it was wonderful! I guess there's no way for guests to comment on FF? safiyabat wrote a pretty fantastic coda too.

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

Well, the one lady bashed her husband to death with a candlestick for saying he didn't want meatloaf, and the kid stabbed a waitress through the hand with a knife...

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree, they were bad, but they weren't just clear out-of-the blue murderous like Jenna, who went to murder her grandmother immediately after she lost her soul. They took some time to get to that point, and at least some of them were "provoked." Yes, complaining about meatloaf again is obviously not a reason to kill someone, but there was SOME kind of trigger, you know? They got mad about SOMETHING and that's when they got murderous. But Jenna wasn't triggered, she was just immediately turned into a killer.

[themegalosaurus.livejournal.com]

Somebody on my Tumblr produced a good theory about Jenna: given the fact that she kissed a girl (and liked it) (as recounted in her reminiscences about growing up in the area), and given grandma's ostentatious Catholicism, it's certainly possible to surmise a history with some degree of tension... I don't know how intentional that was but I do kind of like it

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Headcanon accepted!

(Also, I can't remember... Do you post spoilers to your Tumblr? I'm having withdrawal and I need to find some safe ones to visit.)

[themegalosaurus.livejournal.com]

I do post spoilers, I'm sorry. I tag them but that's no good if you are just visiting the site directly rather than the dashboard.

That said I don't think I have MUCH from the upcoming episodes at the moment. It's mostly discussion about this week. But I can't promise you won't run across anything.

[casey679.livejournal.com]

I would have liked a little ticky box for Misha's Hulk impressions during the don't-make-me-angry-you-wouldn't-like-me-when-I'm-angry phase of the angel drama. I like Misha's acting, but I feel like he kind of... reach the limit of his ability with those faces? Husband and I couldn't stop laughing. MISHA HULK SMASH.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

LOL! Yes, I was trying not to think about the angel drama too much, but you're right. Poor Misha's hulk face definitely called for a poll question.

[ex1led-nyer.livejournal.com]

My theory on why Dean didn't kill Crowley is that he knew that Ruby's knife wouldn't work on Crowley. And it wouldn't have -- as far as we know, only the First Blade+MoC can kill him. That's what I'm telling myself, anyway.

Love love love the thought of Cas blessing a vat of vegetable oil. What happened to "extremely rare"?

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Do we know an angel blade wouldn't work on him?

[ex1led-nyer.livejournal.com]

I don't think we do know. If I had to guess I'd say it wouldn't, since Crowley seems immune to Rowena's magic and devil's trap bullets aren't much more than an annoyance. And somewhere, I can't remember where, I think we learned that Ruby's knife couldn't finish him, either.

[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

I don't think that Ruby's knife could kill Crowley if it couldn't kill Abaddon. You would think that their powers would be at least equal, or he more powerful than her (he's the King, she's a Knight).

[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

The fact that he smoked out of his body before Cas could stab him with an angel knife kind of answers that question. No point in running if the knife can't kill him. :)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Good point.

[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

In my opinion, we've seen enough of soulless people to know that it very well does make you evil when your soul is taken away. Sam was just *that good* a person that he didn't immediately become a serial killer. ;) The way Jenna was looking at her grandmother right before she killed her made me think maybe her grandma had done some things Jenna resented her for, maybe even things that weren't so bad, but who doesn't have those kinds of things between them and a parental figure? But because Jenna no longer had a soul, every petty, resentful feeling came to the surface and there was nothing there to hold her back from committing an act she never would have done with a soul. Like the soulless woman and the meatloaf - no longer having a soul made her act out things she'd probably fantasized about in jest when frustrated with the guy.

Those are the in-show reasons. The out-of-show reasons are that the writers were forming what they wanted a soulless person to be like for the first time with Sam. They couldn't have him commit a big number of murders or any ridiculous ones (like beating someone to death over meatloaf) because he's a main character and must be able to come back from what he's done. All of his murders had to be hunting-related. Jenna and the other soulless people were minor characters, so they could go batshit in a second and kill anyone they wanted to. :D

Deputy Megan Fox, lol!

There is a spoiler for a future episode that might explain Sam's torture vision in some way, but it's still unclear as to exactly what it means even with that spoiler.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Look at you, being all reasonable about it...

[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

I get lucky sometimes. ;)

[safiyabat.livejournal.com]

Honestly, there were some things about the episode that I remember commenting about at the time (live tweeting) but all I remember when I think about it is SAM. It was like Dabb had a checklist of how to make me happy: Smart!Sam, Snarky!Sam, BAMF!Sam, insight into Sam's brain, Sam getting the win (I'm okay with being a major contributor to the win, but here he got it), someone acknowledging what Sam accomplished, interaction with a side character for Sam...

And BILLIE. I will not be subtle and pretend I don't have a new crush. Because I have a new crush. A big one. The actress who plays her has answered the question about whether Billie did or did not give Sam a hint, which I'll shut up about without your permission to speak (I know how you feel about spoilers.). But they had SUCH great chemistry together, and I want to see them on the screen together again!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

It was like Dabb had a checklist of how to make me happy: Smart!Sam, Snarky!Sam, BAMF!Sam, insight into Sam's brain, Sam getting the win (I'm okay with being a major contributor to the win, but here he got it), someone acknowledging what Sam accomplished, interaction with a side character for Sam...

I know, right? I wonder if we would have got ANY of that if the brothers stuck together?

The actress who plays her has answered the question about whether Billie did or did not give Sam a hint, which I'll shut up about without your permission to speak (I know how you feel about spoilers.).

Yes, I'd prefer not to know. Thank you for that.

[safiyabat.livejournal.com]

You know, I've been wishing we could see more "brothers" too but you're right. I don't know that we'd have seen any of the awesome SAM stuff if they'd been together. It's sad, and maybe we would have and I'm wrong, but I'll take what we got and be happy with it.

(Especially Billie.)

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

YOUR POLLS YESS!

Possibly Dean joked about the main BECAUSE he knew well how things got cleaned.... this sort of guilt-discomfort-deflection that he sometimes does - or does in fic somethingm though....

The holy oil worried me toooo! Didn't the once have trouble getting any? But then I decided they apparently could just bless oil like with water, and pretended they broke into a grocery store and blessed it all.... remember the days when they actually had to go and get things and drive across the country and use connections and pay with favors and hustle pool? I miss th ose stories....







Consider this - had it been a flashback, why would Sam yell "what does it mean"? He's had so many flashbacks, he knows them!
The Empty is probably the void of "The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, "? Does everyone assume this? Could be Billy, of course - rival side, Dean with one Sam with the other.... hope not again ....

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Consider this - had it been a flashback, why would Sam yell "what does it mean"?

I took it to mean "what does it mean that I'm having a Hell flashback when I asked for a sign?"

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

LOLLOLLOL ok then :) :)

where my mind was at is - when I have flashbacks I don't think "what does this mean as much as "ugh" or "this again" or even "crap crap this is bad timing this hasn't happened in a while why?!" - but my "why" is "what triggered this? Am I in a bad place and not paying attetion to it?" (which Sam surely is), "am I hungry/tired/lonely and not paying attention to it?",
things like that - I am not generally having an existential moment, unless it's just about me being down for having to deal with flashbacks. If I prayed and then had a flashback, I might be bitter about it or find t funny, I might have some part of myself toying with the concept that it meant something - but I would not be yelling into open corridors "what does it mean?" (probably)

Sam has been having flashbacks for at lease at least two years now, more like four probably? He is familiar with them.

This was a different sort of image than his usual flashbacks, though - maybe he is concerned with the difference (again - more of an "I should think about this, less of a dramatic thing!.... )


Or maybe it's things that did not actually happen to him or that felt very different from a flashback - so that might be more of a reason....

or he is just emotionally exhausted and physically in a bad place and goes a little bit wild there, is all .... ??