Episode poll 13.11: "Breakdown"

[caranfindel]

[Poll #2077681]
As always, no spoilers in the comments, please!

Comments

[fufaraw]

I don't know exactly what the rules are, but *technically*, Donna wasn't *questioning* the prisoner, she was just talking to him--well, taunting him, maybe threatening him a little bit. But she wasn't actually asking any questions, just...giving him the opportunity to share what he knew, after he'd asked for a lawyer.

No show is ever completely without flaws, but I really enjoyed this one--and it was the first in a long time that actually had me scared, at points.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Any statements meant to get an answer from a suspect are considered interrogation. Now, you could get picky and say he didn't specifically state "I invoke my Fifth Amendment right to remain silent." But that's the kind of semantics that a judge probably would not put up with. In any case, Donna's not very veiled threats against his safety would be considered coercion.

[fufaraw]

Yeah, you're right. I just kind of didn't want to admit it, heh.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I forgive Donna, because I love her.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes, because it makes him sad and it makes Dean concerned for him and I LIKE THIS

Haaaah yeah that's pretty much my take on this part (the question of whether they got Kaia killed gets really complicated given that she was going to the Bad Place long before they met her, and we don't know if it could've actually killed her or only hurt her? But either way, while they have a share of responsibility, they're not entirely the ones who brought her into this. Which is the issue most of the time either of the boys are guilting about getting someone killed for bringing them into the life, like, it's not like monsters only target humans in the know? Ignorance isn't protection.)(then again I don't think Kaia is actually dead anyway, so....)

I was kind of assuming with the monster auction that some of these monsters don't need much human flesh, like, a nibble a year will tide them over and keep their coats shiny and whatever. The numbers Clegg was describing still don't compute, though, unless there are a lot more of these auctions happening, and one would really assume they'd have come up before in that case?

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Yes, Kaia's death, and the blame for it, is a very grey area. But of course Sam's going to take the blame.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's the one thing that makes me a bit ??? about this -- Sam guilting about stuff that is only grayly his fault, sure, that's in character; but Dean is as prone to it. And Dean has more direct responsibility for Kaia's involvement*, so it's weird that her death would be a more a trigger for Sam than for him?

--Which isn't to say that I want Dean guilting about this, I am thrilled that Dean is getting the chance to be supportive with Sam again, it's been too long! I just don't get why, if the show was going to have it be Sam's turn for angst, why it didn't take a couple minutes in the earlier episodes for Sam to actually form a connection with Kaia.

* It does occur to me that Kaia was originally brought into their orbit because Jack was trying to save Mary, and it was Sam more than Dean who got Jack invested in that, so maybe that's part of why Sam feels guilty?

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I do think Sam has suffered the more personal losses than Dean has recently. Eileen was, arguably, closer to Sam. Cas "died", but came back, so he's not a loss per se. Dean accepted Jack, Sam really cared for him. Mary is important to both boys. Over the years, Sam's emotions have been buried in part because Dean goes into hyperdrive about how bad he is feeling, so Sam just internalizes, I think this has been one blow too many. I think Sam is feeling guilty because he's more vulnerable emotionally AND because he couldn't express that vulnerability when Dean was falling apart.

Plus Sam has been the one blamed for things for most of the series. Sam's remote from John and Dean? He's the one who left, not they're the ones who never tried to contact them. Lucifer is released, everyone remembers who broke the last seal, but no one really brings up breaking the first seal OR the 64 other seals, Does Sam even know the angels were letting that happen, because Zachariah only told Dean, IIR. Sam comes back without his soul, and he gets to face all the awful things he did without it. It looks like Dean has died, when he only went to Purgatory, when he comes back everyone jumps on Sam for not looking for a dead man. The Darkness gets released, it's Sam's fault for trying to remove the MOC. The pattern is to let Sam know when he has failed. By now, I think he sees every failure as his responsibility.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Went on about this more on Tumblr (https://idontneedasymbol.tumblr.com/post/170309284854/angst-hot-potato)...but hmm, I hate to say it, but your list up there actually made me feel more frustrated with the current arc. In all the above examples, it makes sense why Sam has a drastically different reaction to the events than Dean -- his experiences of them are drastically different. But in this case, as in the beginning of the season, both Sam and Dean have been through the same stuff, the same losses. Some of the people they've lost are arguably closer to one of them or the other, but they've both been friends/family with everyone lost. They both were stuck in the Bad Place together, etc.

And yes, they're very different people, so it makes sense that they have different reactions to things. But now it's feeling kind of like they have the same reactions, just...differently timed? At the beginning of the season, Dean was sunk into deep depression, while Sam barely seemed to be grieving at all. Now Sam is depressed and Dean is in a good mood, and I don't quite get why -- why has Sam seemingly given up on Jack and Mary, when he was so sure Mary could be saved before and they have more evidence now that they're alive? Why is Dean optimistic when he couldn't be before? It's like 'hope' is a talisman that only one Winchester is allowed to carry at a time...

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I don't ship that particular couple so that argument never flew for me, although it did for a lot of people and good for them.

I've been in the position of holding on because other people needed me to. You can't fall apart because if you do, there isn't anyone else who will hold it together. Sam spent the early part of the season trying to keep Dean stable. He also truly believed Mary was alive and although not safe, at least reachable and not necessarily being tortured. He saw the potential that Jack could open the rift so they could find Mary. Dean felt none of those things. Then they find out that Mary is alive, Cas, their friend, is alive. They find out the rift can, in fact, be opened. So the things that were fueling Dean's depression have been ameliorated. However, all this has played to Sam's insecurities. Mary is being tortured. Jack, the kid he cares for is lost. The only way he saw to open the rift, Kaia, is dead. Most importantly Dean doesn't need Sam to be an optimist any longer, so Sam can finally just collapse.

Going back Sam has had to push down his feelings to support Dean. In season two, Dean flat out told him that he had no right to mourn John. In season 3 Dean told him he had no right to be upset that Dean was going to die, because Dean was entitled. In season 8, Sam had to be the one that saw the light at the end of the tunnel and take on the trials, because Dean was so depressed he was suicidal. In season 9 Sam had to "get over" being mad at Dean for tricking him into possession, because Dean had run off and gotten the MOC in a fit of pique. In season 10 Sam had to de-demonfy Dean who was trying to kill him. In season 11, Sam had to deal with Dean having a "special connection" with Amara AND he had to let Lucifer be his roomy because GOD HIMSELF supported the angel that had tortured Sam and God had zero interest in talking to Sam about anything. Last season Sam had to cope with Dean's anger and disappointment at Mary.

The only other times Sam had a chance to deal with a not in emotional crisis Dean was 1) season six when he was soulless and really didn't care, plus Dean had Lisa and was coping. 2) Between seasons 7 and 8 when he was with Amelia and her father pointed out that he was a MESS and like someone who had been through a meat grinder. We were only allowed to see Sam AFTER he had some time to heal from losing Dean, because God (and Carver) forbid, we had to focus on Dean's massive, massive sense of betrayal and giving 5 seconds to Sam's state of mind might have taken away from that.

So, there hasn't been a lot of times when Dean wasn't in emotional turmoil. Now that Dean is coping Sam can finally let go and have the full fledged breakdown he totally deserved.

However, I'm reasonably sure that this will be a one, maybe two episode thing and then Sam will get right back to being strong and optimistic.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I don't ship that particular couple so that argument never flew for me, although it did for a lot of people and good for them.

Am assuming you mean Destiel? In which case, no, it's not my ship either; I had my own take on what was going on with Dean, but nothing came of it anyway.

I'm not going to reply to most of this because, well, I absolutely love Sam but Dean is my guy, and I hate getting into the 'which brother has it worse' debates, either in-story or as treated by the writers. Suffice to say that I see the show very differently!

As for the specifics right now, given this take, I'm still confused why Sam is 'letting' himself break down now. Doesn't Jack still need him? And Mary? Why would Sam assume that Kaia was the only way to open the rift, when Jack's the one who opened it to begin with? (...in all honesty, I'm still confused why they've been believing all along that Jack is the only way to cross universes. They *know* a universe-traveling spell; they learned it in "French Mistake." So why haven't they tried it? argh continuity!)

FWIW, because I don't know if you've seen my comments elsewhere -- I really love that Sam is getting a chance at some emotional turmoil, and I love that Dean is supporting him, and I am hoping we get more of it! I just wish it had been set up better, is all.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

So the things that were fueling Dean's depression have been ameliorated. However, all this has played to Sam's insecurities.

Yes, this is what I was saying. The very same events were good news for Dean but bad news for Sam.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I think part of it is, like I said in my review, Dean is looking up and Sam is looking down. I think Sam is just more likely to jump to the bad conclusion right now.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Oh, I definitely agree that Sam is taking everything in the worst light because he's so depressed. I'm just not quite sure why Sam is so down to begin with -- I don't get what makes 'this' the final straw, or what 'this' even is -- Jack disappearing? Kaia dying in front of them? How was that worse than Mary disappearing and Cas dying in front of them?

(I do think it plays better if one has read Sam as barely hanging on to optimism/sanity for months/years now, and his grip finally just slipped. But even for most of this season before this ep, there were few hints that anything was really bothering Sam. I'd have liked to have gotten more all along -- even if I'm very happy to be getting something concrete now!)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

It's not that Sam is taking everything harder because he's depressed. It's that Sam and Dean started out with a vastly different viewpoints. At the beginning of the season, Dean expected the worst. Sam was hopeful for the best. So Dean was pleasantly surprised, and Sam ended up having his high hopes crushed, by the same events.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Ahhh, I see what you're saying! Sorry, I wasn't quite getting it before, because on the face of it, it looks like all of Sam's hopes from the beginning of the season came true -- Mary is indeed still alive, Cas came back, Jack isn't evil.But if he was hoping for more, if he thought everything would've worked out by now...

Someone else commented on this on Tumblr -- I think the backdoor pilot muddied this arc some. What you're describing -- at least if I'm following! -- is that Sam had pinned all his remaining hopes on Jack and Kaia's gambit to save Mary, and after that fell through, and then Kaia died, he doesn't have anything left to keep hoping with. I just didn't get that sense from Sam in 13x09-10, that he was riding so close to desperation. When Kaia refused them in 13x09, it was Dean who pulled the gun, while Sam was already trying to think of another way that didn't involve her.

If Sam & Dean had a conversation in Jurassic World, it could've set this up? There's definitely room for it. I just wish we could've actually seen it!

[ex1led-nyer.livejournal.com]

"tide them over and keep their coats shiny." Thank you for that.

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed the episode, even if it did pose a lot of unanswered questions, and even if I don't like the idea of monsters living among us. It's not like the Winchesters haven't encountered these kinds of monsters before (the gods in A Supernatural Christmas come immediately to mind) even though Clegg makes it seem like they only hunt the stupidest, least domesticated monsters. Oh well. Sam looked so pretty strapped to that table, I almost forgave the show for doing that to him (again). And Dean really listening to him, obviously sympathizing and offering support (and pancakes) is totally my jam, so I'm a happy camper. I still can't believe they haven't called Cas. Once. Weird.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the monster thing made no sense. But strapped down Sam made up for many sins.

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

I really enjoyed this episode, it was seriously creepy at times, plus we got to see a lot of Sam and Dean. In coats!

I loved this about Doug 2.0 - "I'm all in favor of it because I'm dying for her to hook up with Dean" - as I'd love that to happen, too, there's definitely chemisry there, and not just a shared love of guns 'n' donuts. In my happy version of SPN I have Sam hooking up with Jody and Dean with Donna, awww!

[fufaraw]

::Heart eyes:: What a *won*derful notion!

In the olden days, I always wanted Dean to hook up with Ellen. I thought it would have been good for him, and they *definitely* had chemistry, unlike Jo and him.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Mmmmm, Dean and Ellen would have been excellent as well. And I've read a fanfic or two on that very thesis, so we are not alone!

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

I've wanted Sam and Jody to hook up since "Time After Time", they definitely had chemistry in that episode. Dean and Donna sharing donuts gave me all sorts of ideas, too!

I think Ellen would've been a great match for Dean, even if just once, she could have taught him a thing or three!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

In my happy version of SPN I have Sam hooking up with Jody and Dean with Donna,

I approve this message!

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

*grins*

[kribban.livejournal.com]

Yes, those are my dream pairings. Sadly, Jody is "old" and Donna is "fat" so I doubt it'll ever happen. But at least there's fic!

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

Yes, it annoys me that they make Jody look older than she is (not that I'm sure how old she is!) and Donna look fatter than she is. I'd love to see an episode where they are dressed up to the nines and sexy as hell!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Wait, you think they're padding Donna? I thought it was just that the sherrif uniform was really unflattering. Remember that deputy in S11? (I can only think of her as Not Megan Fox.) She looked a lot thinner in civvies too.

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

Oh no, I didn't mean I think they pad her, just that the uniform is very unflattering and we don't really get to see her out of it.

[kribban.livejournal.com]

Yes, and it's ridiculous because both those actresses are quite sexy in real life.

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

Exactly, they are both very sexy and would be so good for Sam and Dean!

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, who could ever find these ladies attractive?

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

Hee hee, exactly!!

[kribban.livejournal.com]

Oh that's a great picture.

[amicablyevil.livejournal.com]

I loved this episode! Sam was breaking my heart. All his little expressions of fear and hopelessness...

I definitely figured the whole point of the human auction was way less about food and way more about sadism. Like, how many humans want to watch a cow get butchered if all they want is a hamburger? I figure it's more about monsters wanting to watch the kinds of kills their instincts want, but that they're too cautious to commit. The entire setup was about spectacle, not efficiency, and that made a lot of sense to me.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Okay, that does make sense.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

And why did they report her car being found, or claim someone reported it? How did that benefit their scheme?
I assumed a non-monster person reported her car being found abandoned and Clegg came by to cover their tracks.

I don't think Kaia's death is a yes or no question. She wouldn't have died if they hadn't forced her to help them and by they I mean Dean pointing a gun at her and Sam not stopping him, so mostly Dean, who isn't feeling all that guilty. OTOH, I like Dean trying to take care of Sam AND there is still a Kaia shaped being in this world, so it's not so bad. I do understand that Sam feels guilty about practically everything, so it tracks whether he should feel guilty or not.

I'm slightly baffled as to why Sam included being depressed about Cas in his list of things that can't work out. As far as THEY know Cas came back from the dead and is out and about looking for Jack. I don't know why they haven't contacted him to tell him about Kaia and Jack jumping universes, but they don't know that Cas is in trouble and kidnapped with Lucifer. From Sam's POV Cas can wander into the bunker whenever he wants. I don't think it's that they tried to reach him and couldn't because 1) They never said they tried and 2) I'm sure Asmodeus would answer Cas's phone while imitating Cas's voice, just in case Sam and Dean would give him a clue as to where Jack is.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

That's a good point. Cas is on the short list of things not to be concerned about right now, as far as Sam knows.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

:)

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

I think perhaps I can believe that Dean carries vampire cure herbs in that bag because, after all, apparently that poison that kills you for a little bit in there too. So a vampire cure? Sure, I buy that ;)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Good point! He is truly prepared for anything. (I wonder if that grenade launcher is still in the trunk?)

[dragonflybeach.livejournal.com]

Have you seen the SM post about the Book Slapper? Whose job it should be to stand on set of movies and every time the director veers off canon, hit them upside the head with the book? I volunteer to be the SPN version. Every time we violate known canon, I will happily beat people with the box set of the appropriate season(s). Preferably filled with concrete chunks or lead bars.

I was a little surprised that Doug was the one who got turned, because from the intro and first 5 minutes, I expected it to be Wendy. Of course that makes it super convenient that Donna doesn't have Doug to keep her in Minnesota now. I mean, it's not like she has a job, a house, friends, whatever else, going on back in Hibbing. Obviously, if she and Dougie Bear end things, she'll just shuffle off to Sioux Falls.

I had assumed the lady trucker was the one who called in the anonymous tip on the car. Did I miss something and they said it was someone else?

Is the Supernatural Series by Carver Edlund on the summer reading list for the FBI? Was Carver Edlund under federal surveillance? Is that why the books stopped?

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I have not seen it but DAMN I want that job.

[livejournal.livejournal.com]

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[casey679.livejournal.com]

My great unanswered question is who was the guy in the mask, because he was awesome to look at with his evil miming.