Yeah, that's the one thing that makes me a bit ??? about this -- Sam guilting about stuff that is only grayly his fault, sure, that's in character; but Dean is as prone to it. And Dean has more direct responsibility for Kaia's involvement*, so it's weird that her death would be a more a trigger for Sam than for him?
--Which isn't to say that I want Dean guilting about this, I am thrilled that Dean is getting the chance to be supportive with Sam again, it's been too long! I just don't get why, if the show was going to have it be Sam's turn for angst, why it didn't take a couple minutes in the earlier episodes for Sam to actually form a connection with Kaia.
* It does occur to me that Kaia was originally brought into their orbit because Jack was trying to save Mary, and it was Sam more than Dean who got Jack invested in that, so maybe that's part of why Sam feels guilty?
I do think Sam has suffered the more personal losses than Dean has recently. Eileen was, arguably, closer to Sam. Cas "died", but came back, so he's not a loss per se. Dean accepted Jack, Sam really cared for him. Mary is important to both boys. Over the years, Sam's emotions have been buried in part because Dean goes into hyperdrive about how bad he is feeling, so Sam just internalizes, I think this has been one blow too many. I think Sam is feeling guilty because he's more vulnerable emotionally AND because he couldn't express that vulnerability when Dean was falling apart.
Plus Sam has been the one blamed for things for most of the series. Sam's remote from John and Dean? He's the one who left, not they're the ones who never tried to contact them. Lucifer is released, everyone remembers who broke the last seal, but no one really brings up breaking the first seal OR the 64 other seals, Does Sam even know the angels were letting that happen, because Zachariah only told Dean, IIR. Sam comes back without his soul, and he gets to face all the awful things he did without it. It looks like Dean has died, when he only went to Purgatory, when he comes back everyone jumps on Sam for not looking for a dead man. The Darkness gets released, it's Sam's fault for trying to remove the MOC. The pattern is to let Sam know when he has failed. By now, I think he sees every failure as his responsibility.
Went on about this more on Tumblr (https://idontneedasymbol.tumblr.com/post/170309284854/angst-hot-potato)...but hmm, I hate to say it, but your list up there actually made me feel more frustrated with the current arc. In all the above examples, it makes sense why Sam has a drastically different reaction to the events than Dean -- his experiences of them are drastically different. But in this case, as in the beginning of the season, both Sam and Dean have been through the same stuff, the same losses. Some of the people they've lost are arguably closer to one of them or the other, but they've both been friends/family with everyone lost. They both were stuck in the Bad Place together, etc.
And yes, they're very different people, so it makes sense that they have different reactions to things. But now it's feeling kind of like they have the same reactions, just...differently timed? At the beginning of the season, Dean was sunk into deep depression, while Sam barely seemed to be grieving at all. Now Sam is depressed and Dean is in a good mood, and I don't quite get why -- why has Sam seemingly given up on Jack and Mary, when he was so sure Mary could be saved before and they have more evidence now that they're alive? Why is Dean optimistic when he couldn't be before? It's like 'hope' is a talisman that only one Winchester is allowed to carry at a time...
I don't ship that particular couple so that argument never flew for me, although it did for a lot of people and good for them.
I've been in the position of holding on because other people needed me to. You can't fall apart because if you do, there isn't anyone else who will hold it together. Sam spent the early part of the season trying to keep Dean stable. He also truly believed Mary was alive and although not safe, at least reachable and not necessarily being tortured. He saw the potential that Jack could open the rift so they could find Mary. Dean felt none of those things. Then they find out that Mary is alive, Cas, their friend, is alive. They find out the rift can, in fact, be opened. So the things that were fueling Dean's depression have been ameliorated. However, all this has played to Sam's insecurities. Mary is being tortured. Jack, the kid he cares for is lost. The only way he saw to open the rift, Kaia, is dead. Most importantly Dean doesn't need Sam to be an optimist any longer, so Sam can finally just collapse.
Going back Sam has had to push down his feelings to support Dean. In season two, Dean flat out told him that he had no right to mourn John. In season 3 Dean told him he had no right to be upset that Dean was going to die, because Dean was entitled. In season 8, Sam had to be the one that saw the light at the end of the tunnel and take on the trials, because Dean was so depressed he was suicidal. In season 9 Sam had to "get over" being mad at Dean for tricking him into possession, because Dean had run off and gotten the MOC in a fit of pique. In season 10 Sam had to de-demonfy Dean who was trying to kill him. In season 11, Sam had to deal with Dean having a "special connection" with Amara AND he had to let Lucifer be his roomy because GOD HIMSELF supported the angel that had tortured Sam and God had zero interest in talking to Sam about anything. Last season Sam had to cope with Dean's anger and disappointment at Mary.
The only other times Sam had a chance to deal with a not in emotional crisis Dean was 1) season six when he was soulless and really didn't care, plus Dean had Lisa and was coping. 2) Between seasons 7 and 8 when he was with Amelia and her father pointed out that he was a MESS and like someone who had been through a meat grinder. We were only allowed to see Sam AFTER he had some time to heal from losing Dean, because God (and Carver) forbid, we had to focus on Dean's massive, massive sense of betrayal and giving 5 seconds to Sam's state of mind might have taken away from that.
So, there hasn't been a lot of times when Dean wasn't in emotional turmoil. Now that Dean is coping Sam can finally let go and have the full fledged breakdown he totally deserved.
However, I'm reasonably sure that this will be a one, maybe two episode thing and then Sam will get right back to being strong and optimistic.
I don't ship that particular couple so that argument never flew for me, although it did for a lot of people and good for them.
Am assuming you mean Destiel? In which case, no, it's not my ship either; I had my own take on what was going on with Dean, but nothing came of it anyway.
I'm not going to reply to most of this because, well, I absolutely love Sam but Dean is my guy, and I hate getting into the 'which brother has it worse' debates, either in-story or as treated by the writers. Suffice to say that I see the show very differently!
As for the specifics right now, given this take, I'm still confused why Sam is 'letting' himself break down now. Doesn't Jack still need him? And Mary? Why would Sam assume that Kaia was the only way to open the rift, when Jack's the one who opened it to begin with? (...in all honesty, I'm still confused why they've been believing all along that Jack is the only way to cross universes. They *know* a universe-traveling spell; they learned it in "French Mistake." So why haven't they tried it? argh continuity!)
FWIW, because I don't know if you've seen my comments elsewhere -- I really love that Sam is getting a chance at some emotional turmoil, and I love that Dean is supporting him, and I am hoping we get more of it! I just wish it had been set up better, is all.
I think part of it is, like I said in my review, Dean is looking up and Sam is looking down. I think Sam is just more likely to jump to the bad conclusion right now.
Oh, I definitely agree that Sam is taking everything in the worst light because he's so depressed. I'm just not quite sure why Sam is so down to begin with -- I don't get what makes 'this' the final straw, or what 'this' even is -- Jack disappearing? Kaia dying in front of them? How was that worse than Mary disappearing and Cas dying in front of them?
(I do think it plays better if one has read Sam as barely hanging on to optimism/sanity for months/years now, and his grip finally just slipped. But even for most of this season before this ep, there were few hints that anything was really bothering Sam. I'd have liked to have gotten more all along -- even if I'm very happy to be getting something concrete now!)
It's not that Sam is taking everything harder because he's depressed. It's that Sam and Dean started out with a vastly different viewpoints. At the beginning of the season, Dean expected the worst. Sam was hopeful for the best. So Dean was pleasantly surprised, and Sam ended up having his high hopes crushed, by the same events.
Ahhh, I see what you're saying! Sorry, I wasn't quite getting it before, because on the face of it, it looks like all of Sam's hopes from the beginning of the season came true -- Mary is indeed still alive, Cas came back, Jack isn't evil.But if he was hoping for more, if he thought everything would've worked out by now...
Someone else commented on this on Tumblr -- I think the backdoor pilot muddied this arc some. What you're describing -- at least if I'm following! -- is that Sam had pinned all his remaining hopes on Jack and Kaia's gambit to save Mary, and after that fell through, and then Kaia died, he doesn't have anything left to keep hoping with. I just didn't get that sense from Sam in 13x09-10, that he was riding so close to desperation. When Kaia refused them in 13x09, it was Dean who pulled the gun, while Sam was already trying to think of another way that didn't involve her.
If Sam & Dean had a conversation in Jurassic World, it could've set this up? There's definitely room for it. I just wish we could've actually seen it!
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branchandroot
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Date: 2018-01-30 01:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-30 09:52 am (UTC)--Which isn't to say that I want Dean guilting about this, I am thrilled that Dean is getting the chance to be supportive with Sam again, it's been too long! I just don't get why, if the show was going to have it be Sam's turn for angst, why it didn't take a couple minutes in the earlier episodes for Sam to actually form a connection with Kaia.
* It does occur to me that Kaia was originally brought into their orbit because Jack was trying to save Mary, and it was Sam more than Dean who got Jack invested in that, so maybe that's part of why Sam feels guilty?
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Date: 2018-01-30 01:44 pm (UTC)Plus Sam has been the one blamed for things for most of the series. Sam's remote from John and Dean? He's the one who left, not they're the ones who never tried to contact them. Lucifer is released, everyone remembers who broke the last seal, but no one really brings up breaking the first seal OR the 64 other seals, Does Sam even know the angels were letting that happen, because Zachariah only told Dean, IIR. Sam comes back without his soul, and he gets to face all the awful things he did without it. It looks like Dean has died, when he only went to Purgatory, when he comes back everyone jumps on Sam for not looking for a dead man. The Darkness gets released, it's Sam's fault for trying to remove the MOC. The pattern is to let Sam know when he has failed. By now, I think he sees every failure as his responsibility.
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Date: 2018-01-30 07:42 pm (UTC)And yes, they're very different people, so it makes sense that they have different reactions to things. But now it's feeling kind of like they have the same reactions, just...differently timed? At the beginning of the season, Dean was sunk into deep depression, while Sam barely seemed to be grieving at all. Now Sam is depressed and Dean is in a good mood, and I don't quite get why -- why has Sam seemingly given up on Jack and Mary, when he was so sure Mary could be saved before and they have more evidence now that they're alive? Why is Dean optimistic when he couldn't be before? It's like 'hope' is a talisman that only one Winchester is allowed to carry at a time...
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Date: 2018-01-30 08:18 pm (UTC)I've been in the position of holding on because other people needed me to. You can't fall apart because if you do, there isn't anyone else who will hold it together. Sam spent the early part of the season trying to keep Dean stable. He also truly believed Mary was alive and although not safe, at least reachable and not necessarily being tortured. He saw the potential that Jack could open the rift so they could find Mary. Dean felt none of those things. Then they find out that Mary is alive, Cas, their friend, is alive. They find out the rift can, in fact, be opened. So the things that were fueling Dean's depression have been ameliorated. However, all this has played to Sam's insecurities. Mary is being tortured. Jack, the kid he cares for is lost. The only way he saw to open the rift, Kaia, is dead. Most importantly Dean doesn't need Sam to be an optimist any longer, so Sam can finally just collapse.
Going back Sam has had to push down his feelings to support Dean. In season two, Dean flat out told him that he had no right to mourn John. In season 3 Dean told him he had no right to be upset that Dean was going to die, because Dean was entitled. In season 8, Sam had to be the one that saw the light at the end of the tunnel and take on the trials, because Dean was so depressed he was suicidal. In season 9 Sam had to "get over" being mad at Dean for tricking him into possession, because Dean had run off and gotten the MOC in a fit of pique. In season 10 Sam had to de-demonfy Dean who was trying to kill him. In season 11, Sam had to deal with Dean having a "special connection" with Amara AND he had to let Lucifer be his roomy because GOD HIMSELF supported the angel that had tortured Sam and God had zero interest in talking to Sam about anything. Last season Sam had to cope with Dean's anger and disappointment at Mary.
The only other times Sam had a chance to deal with a not in emotional crisis Dean was 1) season six when he was soulless and really didn't care, plus Dean had Lisa and was coping. 2) Between seasons 7 and 8 when he was with Amelia and her father pointed out that he was a MESS and like someone who had been through a meat grinder. We were only allowed to see Sam AFTER he had some time to heal from losing Dean, because God (and Carver) forbid, we had to focus on Dean's massive, massive sense of betrayal and giving 5 seconds to Sam's state of mind might have taken away from that.
So, there hasn't been a lot of times when Dean wasn't in emotional turmoil. Now that Dean is coping Sam can finally let go and have the full fledged breakdown he totally deserved.
However, I'm reasonably sure that this will be a one, maybe two episode thing and then Sam will get right back to being strong and optimistic.
no subject
Date: 2018-01-30 08:38 pm (UTC)Am assuming you mean Destiel? In which case, no, it's not my ship either; I had my own take on what was going on with Dean, but nothing came of it anyway.
I'm not going to reply to most of this because, well, I absolutely love Sam but Dean is my guy, and I hate getting into the 'which brother has it worse' debates, either in-story or as treated by the writers. Suffice to say that I see the show very differently!
As for the specifics right now, given this take, I'm still confused why Sam is 'letting' himself break down now. Doesn't Jack still need him? And Mary? Why would Sam assume that Kaia was the only way to open the rift, when Jack's the one who opened it to begin with? (...in all honesty, I'm still confused why they've been believing all along that Jack is the only way to cross universes. They *know* a universe-traveling spell; they learned it in "French Mistake." So why haven't they tried it? argh continuity!)
FWIW, because I don't know if you've seen my comments elsewhere -- I really love that Sam is getting a chance at some emotional turmoil, and I love that Dean is supporting him, and I am hoping we get more of it! I just wish it had been set up better, is all.
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Date: 2018-01-30 08:50 pm (UTC)Yes, this is what I was saying. The very same events were good news for Dean but bad news for Sam.
no subject
Date: 2018-01-30 02:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-30 07:51 pm (UTC)(I do think it plays better if one has read Sam as barely hanging on to optimism/sanity for months/years now, and his grip finally just slipped. But even for most of this season before this ep, there were few hints that anything was really bothering Sam. I'd have liked to have gotten more all along -- even if I'm very happy to be getting something concrete now!)
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Date: 2018-01-30 08:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-30 09:19 pm (UTC)Someone else commented on this on Tumblr -- I think the backdoor pilot muddied this arc some. What you're describing -- at least if I'm following! -- is that Sam had pinned all his remaining hopes on Jack and Kaia's gambit to save Mary, and after that fell through, and then Kaia died, he doesn't have anything left to keep hoping with. I just didn't get that sense from Sam in 13x09-10, that he was riding so close to desperation. When Kaia refused them in 13x09, it was Dean who pulled the gun, while Sam was already trying to think of another way that didn't involve her.
If Sam & Dean had a conversation in Jurassic World, it could've set this up? There's definitely room for it. I just wish we could've actually seen it!